Time for a Reality Check?

[absent friend]

Thinking back to this time last year and how our Festive Cheer was somewhat overshadowed by our feelings of doom for the club and considering the 12 months since, I wonder if I can touch on a few areas.

Brewster - If he had been retained would we be higher/lower than mid table right now? He has been a useful target for all that went wrong at ICT but was the backing by the Board to halt the decline too little too late?

Butcher - The right choice at the time? In my opinion, of course, we were lucky to get him. I now have to accept that he is a decent manager with a great ability to work the media, which makes me expect more from him.

The Team - Does not now compare with what we had as the ravages of finance has ripped the heart out of the playing staff and backroom staff and we are now only a shadow of our former selves.

Tactics - Only now, due to the new players settling in, are we seeing a glimpse of what we can attain on the park and I feel that the run in will be enjoyable for us all.

The Fans - Due to their diet of success over the years they have a degree of unrealistic expectations.

This can best be seen at this time where our makeshift team of bogof players, as someone on here so aptly put it, only now, well into the season, are starting to gel but are expected to compete with Dundee, a team that has served it's apprenticeship in this division and has spent a fortune to climb out, both in the purchase of players and remuneration.

I would have been happier to see the fans accepting this and being realistic by accepting a high(ish) finish this year with an attack planned for next year maybe, if we can hold onto our better players.

That said, it is this non acceptance of being the underdog by the same fans, that has brought such success to this club and they hold the TT award for supporters..... "Simply the Best"!

The Board - Not able to offer an indepth opinion as I am not privy to their meetings, I know many on here do offer an opinion but I will only say that I am disappointed at the lack of free flow of info emerging from the Board Room. This does not need to be regarding the good running of the club that by necessity is somewhat confidential, but more the sharing of the nitty gritty, to make us feel part of the club.

The Future - More rosy than is being expressed on other threads but again I am not privy to the club's finances but I live in hope that an ICT supporting Callum, will come to our aid.

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[tm4tj]

I'll try the team issues.

I actually believe our team now is better than it was when we won promotion the last time. Better in attack excellent goalkeeper promising midfielders and in Hayes one of the most exciting players to have played for ICT. It is only our back four that are costing us numerous points.

[TopSix]

I'll try the team issues.

I actually believe our team now is better than it was when we won promotion the last time. Better in attack excellent goalkeeper promising midfielders and in Hayes one of the most exciting players to have played for ICT. It is only our back four that are costing us numerous points.

If we can sign a decent centre half it would make a huge difference. I think that losing Dods was a huge blow.

[gordyfromsneck]

I'll try the team issues.

I actually believe our team now is better than it was when we won promotion the last time. Better in attack excellent goalkeeper promising midfielders and in Hayes one of the most exciting players to have played for ICT. It is only our back four that are costing us numerous points.

That's strange. I believe that this team is in no way fit to lace the league winner's boots. But that is the stuff of a different thread.

This team is improving, and I think Terry n June are getting their eye in for Div 1 too. The problem is the board and a lack of strategic thinking.

As for fans, speaking for myself, I will still be coming along if we were in the Highland League.

[Scotty]

Brewster - His (SPL) record at DUFC was abysmal and his SPL record at ICT was almost as bad. I am sure backroom issues that we are unaware of, or that some are aware of but dont post about, didnt help matters but bottom line is he didnt get results. One aspect of his management that I do miss however is fitness. I believe we were fitter under him or at least had more endurance and perhaps we might be closer to Dundee now if we had competed for 90mins in all our games.

Butcher - Some weeks I am convinced, others I am not. I do think he needs at least a full season before we can judge him but we need to be in the mix at the top if this season is to be considered anything close to a success.

Team - Its a reality of life in the lower divisions I am afraid. Some might think the heart has been ripped out of our team (and by team I mean 1st team, management, coaches, reserves, youths etc) and I wouldnt disagree but I think we have a better 1st team squad than most might have feared when we were relegated.

Tactics - As with my comments about Butcher, some weeks I am convinced, others I am not. There is no doubt he is trying his best but sometimes that doesnt translate to the park. I agree that some players are now starting to show the potential that TB obviously rated. Hayes has been excellent of late, Cox had a good start then a dip and is now on the upswing again and Sanchez appears to be getting into it too. Duff could be a good signing but dons fans tend to think he blows hot and cold and with Rooney starting to score (and Foran too hopefully) I hope we can indeed enjoy a nice run-in. My one concern is that those players we are talking about are all on short term deals and if we havent already started contract negotiations then we should. We always seem to get caught out in January with one or more players signing pre-contracts and doom and gloom will certainly set in if we cant retain some or all of those who are currently performing well.

The Fans - I agree that we perhaps need a reality check. I have posted on this subject a few times. Some of our younger fans may not have seen us crawl and climb our way from Division 3 to the SPL and some of our older fans might have forgotten how hard it was and I was quite perturbed to see us (fans) display the same sort of pre-season arrogance that we used to expect from the relegated SPL sides when we were first in D1. This is a hard hard league and only Hibs have bounced back after one season. The likelihood is that we might be in this division for a few years and we need to tailor our expectations accordingly.

The Board - I think you hit the nail on the head with your comments - no-one knows what they do or what goes on as there is never any meaningful update. When we were last in division 1, the board embraced the fans, talked to the fans and were less suspicious of the fans. They were happy to make comments on most things and were approachable and even friendly. Since our elevation to the SPL perhaps they have become too used to directors boxes at Parkhead and Ibrox and mingling with the big names of the sport. whatever it is, they lost the common touch and retreated into their ivory towers at the first sign of disagreement. I can sympathise with some of their plight as in the SPL any words uttered are classed as "news" and anything written (on a website for example) can be held against them by the beaks but they need to take a good long look at themselves and decide whether they want to continue talking at us or roll up their sleeves and work with us to get us back to the SPL.

The Future - Personally I will carry on criticising the club where I feel it is due and praising them when they get something right. I want to offer more praise than criticism but that is governed by what others do so is not up to me.

I would also recommend readin the Us and Them thread : http://community.caleythistleonline.com/in...showtopic=15921

[starchief]

Brewster - I don't dislike the guy but it was totally wrong to bring him back after the DU fiasco. Didn't have the guile to get us out and, more importantly, didn't have Black, Cowie and Rankin on longer contracts when the opportunity was there.

Butcher - Wasn't my first choice but really sparked ICT when he came. He's still finding his way and should have kept both Hastings and Vigurs at least but I feel we may need to go a long-term route to get us back.

The Team - We need either a centre-half or a right-back with Tokely moving inside. But until Duff came in, we were so lacking a creative midfielder too.

Tactics - The half-time talk isn't working. Maybe we need someone with a bit more tactical nous as an assistant?

The Fans - No comment!

The Board - Probably mostly to blame for not seeing Brew wasn't the right man, not signing up our brightest talents, then giving Butcher too little time.

The Future - St Johnstone mark 2 - there or thereabouts but will we ever get back?

[CaleyD]

It all depends which version of "reality" you try to peddle.

For me, the reality is that whilst there's positive change in regards to things like merchandise, catering, some avenues of communication etc...all the things we see and can quantify, the big problems are in what we don't see so much and can't/don't necessarily seek to quantify.

Look around at the things you wouldn't normally give a second thought too. Advertising boards disappearing, reduced adverts in the matchday programme, all but scrapping hospitality and replacing it with the Kingsmills Club, smaller travelling supports at TCS. All things which are dramatically reducing the clubs income.

From the moment we were relegated the club have pushed this "Bounce Straight Back" message, but they have done little to back it up. No new investment, no real budget for Butcher to bring in the players needed, cuts instead of investments in the younger lads coming through. In fact, despite what we were told we seem to be doing everything in reverse of what you would expect from a club with aspirations to "Bounce Straight Back".

If fans are to be accused of "unrealistic expectations" then it is because they were told to expect more than what is being delivered....on and off the pitch.

However, credit where credit is due, to hose who are due it. We've (eventually) seen the arrival of new merchandise lines, ones asked for by the fans. We've seen a change to the caterer following endless complaints about the last ones. We're seeing inroads and attempts being made to bring kids in...and there's more to come on this front.

Fans stepped up to the plate by buying more season tickets than ever before. The staff who are left are stepping up to the plate by maintaining and improving what's within their remit. What are our Board doing???

We've had 5 lucrative seasons in the SPL...we'd never had it so good. However, we get relegated and it quickly transpires that little, if anything, had improved in the terms of how the Board had been structuring and managing the club....we're no further forward in that regard than we were when the club was formed in 1994....in fact, I would say we've probably gone backwards.

If we don't change how things operate at the top, then everything else is just papering over the cracks.

Who was it that once said "If the fans are still talking about the Board in 6 months time then I haven't done my job", and how long has it been since he said it?

That is what I see as the "Reality" of this clubs current position.

[Johnboy]

Butcher - The right choice at the time? In my opinion, of course, we were lucky to get him. I now have to accept that he is a decent manager with a great ability to work the media, which makes me expect more from him.

Can you explain what you mean by that?

[Harry Chibber]

Brewster - Did a lot of things right.

He brought through youth players because he knew we didn't have the spending capabilities of other clubs +

Was a hands on manager and involved in everything from trainining to even contributing on the park +

Almost every player he's bought has excelled at the club, had a real eye for good/cheap signings +

He had an excellent away record, comparitable with only the OF +

Excellent fitness regime +

He was the man behind our relegation -

He had the team playing some dismal football, which resulted in an awful home record -

He got rid of/badly treated some of our legends, which resulted in a back lash from the fans -

He was awful infront of the camera, some of his interviews were embarrassing -

IMO he would be a tremendous assistant manager as demonstrating at C*unty at the moment but in the end as a manager he wasn't good enough

Butcher -

Brings PR to the club, intices players Brewster might not have because of his status within the game +

Media friendly & articulate, I enjoy reading any of his interviews because generally he talks sense +

Nearly saved us from relegation & our record with him when we were in the SPL was excellent +

Has got us trying to play football, better on the eye than what Brewster produced +

For the amount of TV he does I wouldn't be suprised to see this referred to as his part time job -

He preferred Zadi & Golly to Hastings -

Let 2 of our most talented yougsters leave for County -

Although he's brought in some good players he's also brought in some very poor ones -

We're sitting mid table in the first division because of our inconsistency -

Hasn't managed to beat our rivals on either occasion -

Seems to lose all the crucial matches -

Lost from winning positions in consecutive matches, which suggests poor fitness -

The Team -

Isn't bad if we sort out our defence, certainly good enough to compete with any other in the league

Tactics -

If they work +

If they don't -

Rooney looks like a completely different player when up top on his own... at 21ish he and Hayes must be worth a few bob if we can tie down decent contracts

The Fans -

Demanding.... and ill-informed

The Board -

The one thing that the board has without doubt failed upon throughout it's tenure in the SPL has been turning a potential profit. We have operated poorly as a business by not being able to capatilise on our prise assets... the amount of quality players we have let slip through the net because we've been unable or unwilling to offer contract extensions is ridiculous. The one player we sold for a profit we made an @rse of and now are being sued for it... financially this club has been niave and because of that we are now in the first division paying the price

take note - Rooney & Hayes should be signed on as long a contract as they will agree to!!!

The Future -

I think first of all we need to establish if Butcher is likely to stick around for the long run. I can't imagine we'll get promoted this season no matter who we buy in January Dundee will spend more. His contract runs out at the end of the year so if he is willing to stay great, he can show his dedication to cause and hopefully convince some of our players to stay... I think a lot of fans would appreciate he is wanting to be part of our resurgance. If he is planning on leaving if we don't get promoted it could lead to a mass exodus of players and having to rebuild from scratch with no money and little assets we will struggle

[PullMyFinger]

Butcher - The right choice at the time? In my opinion, of course, we were lucky to get him. I now have to accept that he is a decent manager with a great ability to work the media, which makes me expect more from him.

Can you explain what you mean by that?

we're fecked

Happy? :021:

[Johnboy]

No, not really....

It's the "decent manager" bit I'm struggling to get my head round.

[PullMyFinger]

Is this the scale

1. World class
   
2. Excellent
   
3. very good
   
4. good
   
5. decent
   
6. gash
   
7. Brewster
   

[absent friend]

Butcher - The right choice at the time? In my opinion, of course, we were lucky to get him. I now have to accept that he is a decent manager with a great ability to work the media, which makes me expect more from him.

Can you explain what you mean by that?

I am not quite sure which part of the above you don't understand, no big words, gave my opinion as I saw it at the time and how I now see it, which is slightly different due maybe to change of playing staff.

He is a decent manager for us, in my opinion but he always gives me the feeling when talking that he will perform miracles with the players BUT it does not happen! Hence my goal count for us in the prediction league is always high.

[Johnboy]

Butcher - The right choice at the time? In my opinion, of course, we were lucky to get him. I now have to accept that he is a decent manager with a great ability to work the media, which makes me expect more from him.

Can you explain what you mean by that?

I am not quite sure which part of the above you don't understand, no big words, gave my opinion as I saw it at the time and how I now see it, which is slightly different due maybe to change of playing staff.

He is a decent manager for us, in my opinion but he always gives me the feeling when talking that he will perform miracles with the players BUT it does not happen! Hence my goal count for us in the prediction league is always high.

No, no big words, but the few you've managed to string together don't make a whole lot of sense.

Should ICT persevere with his managerial/interpersonal/media skills beyond the expiration of his contract or not?

[absent friend]

Butcher - The right choice at the time? In my opinion, of course, we were lucky to get him. I now have to accept that he is a decent manager with a great ability to work the media, which makes me expect more from him.

Can you explain what you mean by that?

I am not quite sure which part of the above you don't understand, no big words, gave my opinion as I saw it at the time and how I now see it, which is slightly different due maybe to change of playing staff.

He is a decent manager for us, in my opinion but he always gives me the feeling when talking that he will perform miracles with the players BUT it does not happen! Hence my goal count for us in the prediction league is always high.

(A)No, no big words, but the few you've managed to string together don't make a whole lot of sense.

(B)Should ICT persevere with his managerial/interpersonal/media skills beyond the expiration of his contract or not?

I have now placed the reply in two sections (A) and (:021:

(A) I have no idea where your ability to understand my comments let you down, perhaps you can be more specific and I can tailor my written English to suit.

( This area was never part of my offering and why you feel so strongly that I should give an opinion on it at this time, I fail to understand.

.

[ict123]

Butcher - The right choice at the time? In my opinion, of course, we were lucky to get him. I now have to accept that he is a decent manager with a great ability to work the media, which makes me expect more from him.

Can you explain what you mean by that?

All seems fairly self explanatory to me.

[Scotty]

AF & JB - want to discuss it further? please use PM as it is distracting from the topic for the rest of us .... cheers :021:

[caleykid1994]

Butcher - The right choice at the time? In my opinion, of course, we were lucky to get him. I now have to accept that he is a decent manager with a great ability to work the media, which makes me expect more from him.

Can you explain what you mean by that?

Ill tell ya. He talks a good game leading to us thinking that our team is better than we are. We are NOT and that is a fact although its slowly turning round.

[absent friend]

AF & JB - want to discuss it further? please use PM as it is distracting from the topic for the rest of us .... cheers

I fail to see any problem I have caused by answering, in a civilised way, the areas raised by another poster and indeed I notice other posters have also discussed the areas raised with no resort to anything other than Queens English.

However if this is seen as a problem for posting on this forum, I'm sure there is an easy way to rectify it without resorting to pm, twitter or whatever - just don't post!!

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[Johnboy]

AF & JB - want to discuss it further? please use PM as it is distracting from the topic for the rest of us .... cheers

I fail to see any problem I have caused by answering, in a civilised way, the areas raised by another poster and indeed I notice other posters have also discussed the areas raised with no resort to anything other than Queens English.

However if this is seen as a problem for posting on this forum, I'm sure there is an easy way to rectify it without resorting to pm, twitter or whatever - just don't post!!

.

I don't see any problems with with this forum either, Absent Friend....

Thank you for addressing my question.

[PullMyFinger]

In my opinion Butcher is no more than a tradesman in much the same way as many of our players are. They're not going to set the heather alight but will do a decent job on their day. Unfortunately for Butcher, when it comes to management when you do a poor job everyone notices and when you do a good job no-one notices. The jury's still out.

[buckett]

The title of the thread says it all.

ICT is currently regrouping having been relegated from the SPL.

Old stalwarts have moved on; new players have moved in and are now starting to gel.

The team is gradually making progress and is rising up the first division.

Who in their wildest dreams seriously believed we would bounce straight back up after all these changes?

Yet there is now a glimmer of hope. Top 4 would be quite an achievement - promotion, though unlikely, is now a faint possibility.

It's quite amusing reading this forum after a defeat or a draw - all doom and gloom, "Butcher must go", etc., etc., "No chance of promotion now", blah blah blah, yet when we win the forum is noticeably quiet - very few postings on the main board on the Sunday or Monday following a Saturday win.

As the title says, "Time for a reality check"

[AJS]

I expected us to be in the postion we are in at this point of the season. Loitering around mid-table.

What i'am pleased about is that given how financially strapped we are we have now assembled a decent team with a good understanding of each other. Though i would question the capability of some players brought in over the summer and they which they were assesed.

We won't get promoted and but i would at least like to see us in the top 4 at the end of the season.

[Huisdean]

I agree with many of the comments that slowly, the team is starting to gel and we now really need to identify those we need to get rid of in the transfer window and opunt them to make some cash available for signings.

I do not know the rationale behind signing a lot of the new players on a 1 year deal, although I can understand partly why the club has now done this. However, as promotion is slwoly slipping away unless results start to work in our favour, then we have to think about next season. That means identifying if TB is going to stay and also signing up the players who we want to keep now on longer contracts. Surely we must be able to say to these players, look if you sign for us, you will get a regular came but if a major club comes in for you, and for that to happen they will have to play consitently well every week, then we will keep you advised of the situation and would not stand in your way for a transfer.

What worries me the most about this situation is that there appears to be no planning by the board for next season and if they continue to neglect this, the task will become harder. I cannot remember the last time the board uttered anything on the future of the club other than at the start of the season and it seems to me thay they do not have a clue on how to proceed. Perhaps there are too many placemen on the board as I don't see anyone with the passion and vision to drive us forward sitting there.

If any of the board do read this, wake up and start to smell the coffee before it is too late. If you don't feel that you can contribute to the club or are constrained by other issues then please resign and let new blood in.

[TheKnowledge]

I honestly believe we are two decisive defenders and one tactically aware manager away from promotion.

Brewster - Should have never been brought back but since the board went and done what everyone told them not to, they should have left him to the end of the season. The damage had been done as far as alienating our star players and points lost goes.

Butcher - Flatters to deceive. Does not know when to change things on the park, but, he is loyal to his players. He turned the team around after Christmas last year but, I thought Brew was going to turn it around anyway, and Ibrox was as lucky as your ever going to get in a game of football.

Fans - Just like your average football fans, loyal, over-expectant and believe we have more influence over the broad than we really do.

The Board - Who knows? Whenever I hear about them, it seems to be negative.

Me - I need to attend more games. When I go, we win, apart from when we play Ross County, but I think Morton are sick fed up of me. Should probably drink less before games.

CTO - 9.5 out of 10. You lose .5 because some of the adverts at the top make me feel guilty about life. Need to make the hosting fees though.

Roscoe - Learn to control a ball and you'll play for Scotland.

Imrie - Get over yourself

Hayes, Foran, Rooney, Esson, Duncan and Cox - keep it up.

Bulvitis, Muro, Golly and Zadi - why so nervous?

We have a really good team, we just need the right manager to make it all work.