Today's News

[Johnboy]

So China brushed aside international appeals, including a strongly worded one from Gordon Brown, and executed a British drug smuggler who relatives say was mentally unstable and unwittingly lured into crime.

I'd say China are within their rights to have the death penalty in place for crimes such as these, and that we, as a country shouldn't interfere. I don't even believe appeals for clemency on the grounds of mental instability should be entertained. in any court-room.

[SMEE]

I am in agreement with you JB. The law is the law and there should be no exceptions. it hacks me off when people use mental health issues as a defence, like in this case. If he was so mentally handicapped...why was he allowed to travel to the other side of the world alone? Nope.....you mess with the bull....you get the horns!

[DAM]

So China brushed aside international appeals, including a strongly worded one from Gordon Brown, and executed a British drug smuggler who relatives say was mentally unstable and unwittingly lured into crime.

I'd say China are within their rights to have the death penalty in place for crimes such as these, and that we, as a country shouldn't interfere. I don't even believe appeals for clemency on the grounds of mental instability should be entertained. in any court-room.

If we as a country had the death penalty for drug pushers it would go a long way towards solving the problem of drug abuse. How many deaths have the drug pushers been responsible for over the years? Does that not make them murderers? What is the point of the soft option of jailing them when prisons are already full of drugs. Execute the barstewards, the country would be a much better place without them. No doubt the "dogooders" can't wait to have a go at me.

[starchief]

I've never understood what was wrong with doing good.

How can you tell a grown adult they shouldn't do what they want in the privacy of their own home because it's bad for them. If they're taking it in front of children, then take action. If they're stealing, prosecute. Otherwise, it's nothing to do with anyone else.

[Johnboy]

I've never understood what was wrong with doing good.

How can you tell a grown adult they shouldn't do what they want in the privacy of their own home because it's bad for them. If they're taking it in front of children, then take action. If they're stealing, prosecute. Otherwise, it's nothing to do with anyone else.

So was the execution of Akmal Shaikh in Beijing for smuggling drugs into China appropriate or not?

[starchief]

Nope. For a few reasons.

I don't think drugs are the problem in themselves. It's a bit catch all anyway. Heroin it was supposed to be. Regulate it and it will work as well or as badly as any others, e.g. sugar, tobacco, alcohol...

I doubt the mental health problems were that severe but, as I understand it, it was never assessed. So not right again. I 100% believe that mental instability can be a defence. Executing someone with a mind of a child that's been manipulated is dead wrong. I'm not saying that's what happened here but you did say "I don't even believe appeals for clemency on the grounds of mental instability should be entertained. in any court-room."

Living where I do, I know how deep corruption can run. I wouldn't necessarily believe any verdict from such a country.

I don't believe in the death penalty purely because miscarriages of justice happen. I don't have any problem morally otherwise but sending an innocent man to be killed is a wrong that can never be righted.

[CaleyD]

What is it about "The West" that makes them think they have the right to constantly stick their nose into the affairs of everyone else?

If you travel to another country then you abide by their laws and suffer the consequences of breaking them.

If people wish to appeal for clemency then so be it, I have no problem with that. Everyone has the right to raise any extenuating circumstances in any case, but that does not mean that they should be automatically granted or even listened to if the country/legal system in question does not allow for such things....but lets not be doing it at the taxpayers expense.

If we concentrated as much on sorting out our own problems then perhaps this country wouldn't be in such a mess.

[starchief]

It's not really to do with this case but there are some basic rights that I believe transcend national laws. In many countries, homosexuality is illegal, for instance. So is the right to demonstrate. I wouldn't say to someone arrested for such offences that it's their own fault for not obeying rules of another country. Rather, I'd applaud them for standing up to discrimination - even though that may very well have dire consequences.

Still, nothing really to do with smuggling drugs.

[+Gringo]

I am in agreement with you JB. The law is the law and there should be no exceptions. it hacks me off when people use mental health issues as a defence, like in this case. If he was so mentally handicapped...why was he allowed to travel to the other side of the world alone? Nope.....you mess with the bull....you get the horns!

I agree here with the issue of him being allowed to travel alone. Surely he couldn't have been that bad, mentally. If he was then all his family and friends wouldn't have let him go...would they? It is all very well crying foul after the event but when travelling to foriegn parts you have to be street wise and clued up on other countries laws - fall foul of them and face the consequences, simple as.

[Joonya]

If we concentrated as much on sorting out our own problems then perhaps this country wouldn't be in such a mess

Agree 100%

[PullMyFinger]

So China brushed aside international appeals, including a strongly worded one from Gordon Brown, and executed a British drug smuggler who relatives say was mentally unstable and unwittingly lured into crime.

I'd say China are within their rights to have the death penalty in place for crimes such as these, and that we, as a country shouldn't interfere. I don't even believe appeals for clemency on the grounds of mental instability should be entertained. in any court-room.

Every case should be dealt with on a case by case basis.

Look at the case of Garry McKinnon who is fighting extradition to the US for hacking into Pentagon and NASA computers looking for evidence of UFOs. He did this in his own home without leaving the country. This man is to be tried in an American court which could impose a custodial sentence of up to 60 years (yes sixty) and he has definitely got a mental disorder. It would effectively be a death sentence for him as his health would deteriorate rapidly and is actually deteriorating with this case hanging over him.

Reading of the case of Akmal Shaikh I feel no pity as he travelled to a country with a history of human rights issues, he must have known the possible consequences of his actions and been willing to take the risk for a chance of a massive payday.

[DALNEIGHCALEY]

The poor guy had bipolar disorder and was duped by a gang , I'm sure he wouldn't even have been aware he was smuggling heroin . The fact the Chinese excecuted the poor chap came as no surprise to me considering there history on human rights .

[SMEE]

The poor guy had bipolar disorder and was duped by a gang , I'm sure he wouldn't even have been aware he was smuggling heroin . The fact the Chinese excecuted the poor chap came as no surprise to me considering there history on human rights .

Mental health issues doenst automaticlly make you stupid and gullible. On the contrary, many genisus suffer from mental health issues. This guy ran his own sucsessful business until a few years ago. So i doubt he was badlty affected. Add to that the fact he was well enuff to go to the other side of the world himself. All of this doesnt suggest a vulnerable individual

[DALNEIGHCALEY]

I'm not saying the guy was stupid but when affected by manic depression the mood swings can be severe and can last for weeks . for the Chinese to not even carry out any tests to determine the severity of the alleged disorder is unacceptable IMHO .

[starchief]

I think it's really the last part of DC's sentence that does it for me. We've no idea of his mental state...but neither did the Chinese authorities. Just plain wrong not to be taken into account. Don't misunderstand me, I sincerely doubt he was as bad as some are making out but it's the ignoring it that makes it scandalous.

[+DoofersDad]

I'm not saying the guy was stupid but when affected by manic depression the mood swings can be severe and can last for weeks . for the Chinese to not even carry out any tests to determine the severity of the alleged disorder is unacceptable IMHO .

So what's the answer? If they had done tests and found him to be ill, what would they have done? Returned him to the UK?

Just because you are ill does not excuse you from being responsible for your actions otherwise being mentally ill would be a licence to be above the law. Whilst society should treat and care for the mentally ill, society cannot allow the mentally ill to be above the law. Either they have to accept the consequences of their actions or they need to be detained if they are not capable of being responsible for their actions.

I agree with you that they should have done tests but I also agree with Smee that it is unlikely that any level of mental illness would have been considered to be so severe to think it reasonable that he was not responsible for his actions. If he had been diagnosed as severely ill then negotiations around repatriation might have been appropriate. The lesson is that whether or not you like another country's laws and customs, if you choose to go there, you respect them or face the consequences.

[starchief]

Just because you are ill does not excuse you from being responsible for your actions

What the hell's "diminished responsibility" then?

[Joonya]

From good old Wikipedia -

DIMINISHED RESPONSIBILITY - In criminal law, diminished responsibility (or diminished capacity) is a potential defense by excuse by which defendants argue that although they broke the law, they should not be held criminally liable for doing so, as their mental functions were "diminished" or impaired

I, personally, think this word out the above sentence, sums up perfectly what 'diminished responsibility' means!!!

Yes, there are certain times where these cases are genuine, but they are very very rare. More and more 'criminals' are claiming mental illness, depression or whatever. I've very recently seen close hand that mental illness is just an excuse. I'll try nd dig out the article from the P&J and let you judge for yourselves later...

[CaleyD]

This guy had no documented medical history of mental illness.....the whole "he's bipolar" thing only came about after he was detained. Sounds to me like it was the stress of his detention that is more likely to have brought about any condition he might have been suffering from as opposed to him having a pre-existing condition that might have contributed to his being duped into smuggling drugs.

[Joonya]

found it

now, let me tell you that i saw what the family went through with this trial, and also housed the baby and his father after the bab left hospital - where it was told the bab couldn't be helped out with further medical treatment, that nature would take its course and his survival rate was down at 10%!!!

the mother had tests for postnatal depression and they came back negative! She had later tests for mental illness, which also came back negative! however, the mental health card was still played, and because the jury were not 'unanamous' and only 'majority' on their verdict, she got ONLY a suspended sentence and community service.

Apologies for going slightly off-topic, but thought this was a prime example of people trying to defend those who know exactly what they are doing

[starchief]

Judge what? That some mental illnesses are genuine and some are not? That people condemned to death won't clutch at straws? Of course some people will lie about it but it doesn't take anything away from the crippling effect that it can have on people's lives.

I have some friends that work with severely mentally ill people. To say that some are just as responsible as the everyday person is absolute nonsense. But if someone with the mind of a toddler is judged to be fully conversant with the law and responsibility for actions, why not then a toddler?

[PullMyFinger]

the mother had tests for postnatal depression and they came back negative! She had later tests for mental illness, which also came back negative

Tests? Not quite like a blood test for diabetes though is it? It's down to professionals who on the day, may or may not get it right.

[Joonya]

Why twist my words? :D

The point i am making is that mental illness is just an excuse, and nothing more. It seems to be the most effective way of getting off the hook with things.

there's probably some drunk driver out there who'll hit a kid and get let off with it because he was so intoxicated, his mental state was in effect diminished and he didnt know what he was doing.

[starchief]

The point i am making is that mental illness is just an excuse, and nothing more. It seems to be the most effective way of getting off the hook with things.

No, it's not. Sometimes it's just an excuse. Sometimes it's a lot more.

'Getting off the hook' can mean spending years in a mental institution.

Case-by-case basis for me. No catch-all.

[PullMyFinger]

Not trying to twist your words at all GJnr.

A very sad case you highlighted, but to imply the mother was of sound mind doesn't really ring true.

In a premeditated crime such as smuggling, then they must live with the consequences of their actions.

I'd say in a crime of passion that the assailant has temporarily diminished responsibility and they are not necessarily suffering from a mental illness.