Ebay: Papyal Disputes

[SMEE]

Anyone here have any knowledge of how paypal disputes work? I sold a bass on ebay this week. today..i had an email form the buyer, basically wanting his money back...stating that the guitar is significantly not as described. I sold the guitar as honestly as possible, supplied all the info i had. I have included the description below, for anyone to see. I made it clear that anyone in any doubt should not bid. Anyone with any tips on best how to deal with this is more than welcome to comment.

Here we have a nice 1974 Fender Precision Bass (as it was described to me when i bought it). It is Black body, black scrathplate and a maple neck. it is fitted with a Badass II bridge. This Bass is nice to play and is in very good condition

It comes with an original Fender hardcase, which although it has seen better days, it is still very useable. This is a very nice bass to play.

UPDATE

I have been asked about serial numbers etc. The only numbers i can find are on the headstock. This numbers are: PAT. 2 573 254 2.968.204 3.143.028 2.976 755.

On the plate on the back of the body is the number 59946

The tuning heads look like they have been replaced

I will be honest and tell you..i have tried to verify the age of the Bass...but it is all gobledegook to me. But i can assure you,it was sold to me as a 1974 model. If you have any doubts at all...PLEASE DONT BID! I dont want any hassle!

*Please note UK Bidders ONLY please

On 05-Feb-10 at 18:23:14 GMT, seller added the following information:

UPDATE

I am being inundated with requests for more pics and more information. I can not supply any more pics or information other than what is already there. I have to say, I am no expert on Guitars, but i have supplied all the relevant information as honestly as possible for fellow ebayers to make their own minds up.

As i have previously sed, this guitar was sold to me, in its current state (i have made no alterations) as a 1974 model, hence why i have listed it as such. I have no reason to think otherwise. I can not be any more honest than this.

As i stated already, if you have any doubts about this item, please, DO NOT BID!!

Also, UK bidders ONLY please

Edited February 13, 2010 by SMEE

[Oz647]

I've had a couple of disputes dealt with by paypal. I was the buyer in both cases but it is pretty much the same in both cases.

One of you will start the dispute by going to the resolution centre on paypal. Type in the complaint. Paypal contact the other party and then adjudicate over the issue. When they have reached a decision they let both of you know and issue/retrieve money as necc.

Hope this helps

[DornochCaley]

Hmm...The guy might get a warning from E-bay or something, but i doubt anything can be done. He hasn't swindled you out of money or anything, so the chances are E-bay will just make you give him the money back, and he will send the guitar back... Poor crack, but E-bay is not as good aas it was.

[DAM]

Anyone here have any knowledge of how paypal disputes work? I sold a bass on ebay this week. today..i had an email form the buyer, basically wanting his money back...stating that the guitar is significantly not as described. I sold the guitar as honestly as possible, supplied all the info i had. I have included the description below, for anyone to see. I made it clear that anyone in any doubt should not bid. Anyone with any tips on best how to deal with this is more than welcome to comment.

Here we have a nice 1974 Fender Precision Bass (as it was described to me when i bought it). It is Black body, black scrathplate and a maple neck. it is fitted with a Badass II bridge. This Bass is nice to play and is in very good condition

It comes with an original Fender hardcase, which although it has seen better days, it is still very useable. This is a very nice bass to play.

UPDATE

I have been asked about serial numbers etc. The only numbers i can find are on the headstock. This numbers are: PAT. 2 573 254 2.968.204 3.143.028 2.976 755.

On the plate on the back of the body is the number 59946

The tuning heads look like they have been replaced

I will be honest and tell you..i have tried to verify the age of the Bass...but it is all gobledegook to me. But i can assure you,it was sold to me as a 1974 model. If you have any doubts at all...PLEASE DONT BID! I dont want any hassle!

*Please note UK Bidders ONLY please

On 05-Feb-10 at 18:23:14 GMT, seller added the following information:

UPDATE

I am being inundated with requests for more pics and more information. I can not supply any more pics or information other than what is already there. I have to say, I am no expert on Guitars, but i have supplied all the relevant information as honestly as possible for fellow ebayers to make their own minds up.

As i have previously sed, this guitar was sold to me, in its current state (i have made no alterations) as a 1974 model, hence why i have listed it as such. I have no reason to think otherwise. I can not be any more honest than this.

As i stated already, if you have any doubts about this item, please, DO NOT BID!!

Also, UK bidders ONLY please

The buyer entered into a legal contract when he bid on your guitar and if the guitar was exactly as you have described it then the winning bidder really has to accept that. It seems to me that he wants his money back simply because he does not like the look of the guitar or something. He was given the chance not to bid on it so I can't really see that he has a leg to stand on.

Reply to his email and ask him to refer to your description again. Keep it civil. As far as the dispute goes you don't have to do anything at the moment, it is up to the buyer to raise a dispute (if he so wishes) with ebay and in turn ebay will contact you for you to give your side of the story. Ebay will advise you on how to amicably settle the matter.

Hope you get on ok.

[CaleyD]

What inaccuracy is he claiming in your description? You've clearly stated that their could be some doubt about the make/model/year so the only thing he could get you on if he took it to a dispute would be condition and/or it was playable (as stated).

I would avoid entering into any protracted discussion over it with him. If he has stated his reasons and you don't agree simply reply saying you don't agree and are not willing to refund him, if he hasn't given specific reason then ask him for them and reply accordingly (i.e. Agree or Disagree).....THEN LEAVE IT AT THAT. The more comms you have with him, the more he has to go complaining with, especially if you make any snide/abrupt comments....easily done without thinking/realising you're doing it (voice of experience...lol).

[SMEE]

What inaccuracy is he claiming in your description? You've clearly stated that their could be some doubt about the make/model/year so the only thing he could get you on if he took it to a dispute would be condition and/or it was playable (as stated).

this is what he is claiming:

Hi, I got the bass this morning but we do have a major problem - the only thing that is "Fender" about the bass is the neck and the case - the body - pickups - machineheads - scratchplate , literally everything else are from a cheap copy - there are no serial numbers to even indicate that the bass is from 1974 - so I'd like to return it to you for a full refund less the postage which you have laid out for.

I hope this isn't a problem as I feel the bass is significantly "not as described"

regards

Now....it clearly states in the description i gave, that certain parts were not the originals. I have spoken to a couple of Fender owners about this this afternoon. They tell me, as far as the body goes, the gerneral rule with guitars is...the heavier the guitar, the better the quality of wood. Also, cheap copies are usually made of a single peice of wood. My guitar body was made up from three peices of wood (as you could tell when held up against the sunlight, you could see the joins under the paintwork)

I believe this to be a quality guitar.

[Caley Mad In Berks]

Looks to me as if the guy is a knowledgeable buyer. The only sure way he could tell if the guitar was actually a 1974 model was by examining it, given that you were unable to supply confirming serial nos. etc. I think I too would be seeking a refund in the circumstances. However, you can wait and let Ebay decide the outcome.

[SMEE]

Looks to me as if the guy is a knowledgeable buyer. The only sure way he could tell if the guitar was actually a 1974 model was by examining it, given that you were unable to supply confirming serial nos. etc. I think I too would be seeking a refund in the circumstances. However, you can wait and let Ebay decide the outcome.

If that was true...

a)why did he not ask me for conformation? I mean..if i had inside knowledge , that could save me from buying a duff...i am going to ask the seller to provide proof!

:024: Why did he bother to bid, based on the info he did have, supposing he had doubts?

[DornochCaley]

Looks to me as if the guy is a knowledgeable buyer. The only sure way he could tell if the guitar was actually a 1974 model was by examining it, given that you were unable to supply confirming serial nos. etc. I think I too would be seeking a refund in the circumstances. However, you can wait and let Ebay decide the outcome.

If that was true...

a)why did he not ask me for conformation? I mean..if i had inside knowledge , that could save me from buying a duff...i am going to ask the seller to provide proof!

B) Why did he bother to bid, based on the info he did have, supposing he had doubts?

E-bay is full of Wankers my friend...

[+DoofersDad]

I agree with you that he probably should have asked for comfirmation and if he wasn't sure he shouldn't have bid - after all you did make it pretty clear that if people were not sure they shouldn't bid. However, you have advertised it as a Fender when you are now clearly saying you are not sure. The buyer sounds reasonable and knowledgable and I think if he pursued this through the disputes process Paypal would conclude that you were the "ofFender". Sorry!

[WYNESS101]

Never sell on ebay just buy its alot easier

[tm4tj]

pm me smee, if the geetar is avalable, then I'M IN.

[Mick]

Mate do not and i mean DO NOT take this to dispute...ebay/paypal will side with the buyer and will end up with you being out of pocket and a guitar down.

The way your post reads is there has been no dispute made yet, more emails between yourself and the buyer...get the guitar back and give him his money...if it goes to an ebay/paypal dispute...you will loose both!

Trust me...ebay/paypal will side with the buyer in any dispute!

A frozen paypal account and 600 quid taking off me is proof of that....

DONT SELL ON EBAY

Edited February 14, 2010 by Mick

[SMEE]

Mate do not and i mean DO NOT take this to dispute...ebay/paypal will side with the buyer and will end up with you being out of pocket and a guitar down.

The way your post reads is there has been no dispute made yet, more emails between yourself and the buyer...get the guitar back and give him his money...if it goes to an ebay/paypal dispute...you will loose both!

Trust me...ebay/paypal will side with the buyer in any dispute!

A frozen paypal account and 600 quid taking off me is proof of that....

DONT SELL ON EBAY

The seller has already escelated it to a claim!

Thing is....wen i get my teeth into a fight....i normally win. Theres a trail of many beaten BIG corporations, such as BT, AOL, Loyds Insurance to back up my claim. My personal favorite was, the time i had the Sheriffs Officers running scared...and bending over backwards to accomodate me, to refund ME money!

Am quite happy to take whoever on, provided i BELIEVE i am in the right. I believe it was a fair and legitimate trade.

To DoofersDad, I am not airring any doubts to the authenticity of the guitar at all. It is the buyer that is doing so. If you re-read my ebay descritption...i make it clear that parts had been changed, which is not unusuall for anything of near 40 yrs of age.

Here is what i am going to reply to Payal with:

I disagree with Mr Davison?s summation of the guitar. I know the neck of the guitar is from around 1974. The stamp on it proves this. I have no reason to believe the body is not of the same age, and there is no possible way Mr Davison could ascertain this by just looking at it either.

As well as sharing all the relevant information I had on the guitar, I also made it clear on the description?that certain parts had been changed on the guitar. This is not unusual on a guitar of nearly 40 yrs of age!

Mr Davison apparently deals in guitars, so should be more than aware off what to look for. He chose not to exercise his right to ask me any pertinent questions regarding the guitar, through the ?ask the seller a question? facility on ebay, which could have avoided this situation!

I made it crystal clear on the listing, that if there was ANY doubts, people should not bid.

Mr Davison dictated the price of this guitar, not me! Also, I clearly stated on the item description that there were to be No Returns Accepted!

As far as I am concerned, this was a legitimate and fair trade!

Edited February 14, 2010 by SMEE

[Yngwie]

Take Mick's advice Smee, even though you've acted in good faith you'll lose this fight. Ebay simply will not allow sellers to use caveat empor and get out clauses to cover (potential) misrepresentation, the place would be overrrun with total conmen and would collapse.

The buyer's offer to bear the cost of the postage seems pretty fair and reasonable.

[SMEE]

Take Mick's advice Smee, even though you've acted in good faith you'll lose this fight. Ebay simply will not allow sellers to use caveat empor and get out clauses to cover (potential) misrepresentation, the place would be overrrun with total conmen and would collapse.

The buyer's offer to bear the cost of the postage seems pretty fair and reasonable.

Sorry...when i believe i am in the right..i will fight my corner, and i am a stubborn, yet resourceful fooker. I wouldnt be so quick to write me off either. I have tackled some of the biggest companies in Europe....all on my lonesome....and won. Even took on the might of Loyds insurance of London, when my Insurance company were making a hash of it....i told them to **** off and ad handle it myself. Loyds ended up coughing up ?2000. All because i stuck to my guns. Worst case scenario for me is, ...i lose my paypal account, big deal!

This buyer obviously thought he was onto a good thing, thinking he could make money on the back of it. Do you think he would have been so quick to contact me IF it turned out the guitar was a highly valuable instrument. DONT KID YOURSELVES!!

Its all about principles here for me. This buyer decided on the price...not me. Nobody forced him to bid, he did so through his own free will. He had every opportunity to ask ANY details he needed clearing up in order to help him come to a decision. He chose not to. Ignorance is not a defence nor a reason for a refund!

The guitar could have easily sold for ?200 (near ?300 less than i paid for it years ago). Just so happened, it never

Footnote:

The buyer states the guitar is significantly "not as described". Well...small technicality here...but at no point was the items he lists ever mentioned in the description. So how can they be "not as described"? Cases are won and lost on such technicalities!

Edited February 14, 2010 by SMEE

[Scotty]

If you sell (or intend to sell) on eBay on a regular basis, it may be better to lose this battle in order to win the war .... Regardless of the outcome of the dispute resolution process you will likely get negative reputaton meaning others are less likely to bid on your items or deal with you.

[CaleyD]

Feedback works differently now Scotty....not so easy to leave negative feedback just because you're hacked off, has to be legitimate reason and users leaving inappropriate/unsubstantiated negative will/do get hammered by Ebay.

[Alex MacLeod]

One thing to bear in mind. Whether selling new or second hand the Trades description Act comes into being. If you sell something as something and it turns out to be something else you can be prosecuted.

You sell a second hand guitar as a second hand fender and it turns out not to be a fender, regardless of what you think it is or what repairs, modifications etc have been done, then the buyer has just cause to seek legal retribution. You dont actually know how much of an expert this guy is but believe me, guitar collectors usually know their stuff. I. like others would advise you ask for the guitar to be returned then you return the money paid. If you've money lying in a paypal account it will likely now be frozen.

[DALNEIGHCALEY]

I agree with you that he probably should have asked for comfirmation and if he wasn't sure he shouldn't have bid - after all you did make it pretty clear that if people were not sure they shouldn't bid. However, you have advertised it as a Fender when you are now clearly saying you are not sure. The buyer sounds reasonable and knowledgable and I think if he pursued this through the disputes process Paypal would conclude that you were the "ofFender". Sorry!

I agree with you DD , the opening line of the advert states " a nice 1974 Fender Precision Bass " . Looks like the buyer has rumbled you SMEE .

[SMEE]

I agree with you that he probably should have asked for comfirmation and if he wasn't sure he shouldn't have bid - after all you did make it pretty clear that if people were not sure they shouldn't bid. However, you have advertised it as a Fender when you are now clearly saying you are not sure. The buyer sounds reasonable and knowledgable and I think if he pursued this through the disputes process Paypal would conclude that you were the "ofFender". Sorry!

I agree with you DD , the opening line of the advert states " a nice 1974 Fender Precision Bass " . Looks like the buyer has rumbled you SMEE .

You should think about taking up Journalism DC, what with your selective and partial quotes an all!

[Johnboy]

I will be honest and tell you..i have tried to verify the age of the Bass...but it is all gobledegook to me. But i can assure you,it was sold to me as a 1974 model. If you have any doubts at all...PLEASE DONT BID! I dont want any hassle!

UPDATE

I am being inundated with requests for more pics and more information. I have to say, I am no expert on Guitars, but i have supplied all the relevant information as honestly as possible for fellow ebayers to make their own minds up.

As i stated already, if you have any doubts about this item, please, DO NOT BID!!

I would say you've covered yourself pretty well with your comments above, Smee....

The buyer was taking a wee bit of a gamble here, and probably thought he was on to a good thing. If he had any doubts he should have taken a trip to Sneck to see it for himself.

[SMEE]

Yeah JB. if you read the decription, you will realise it is carefully worded so as not to mislead anyone AND cover my ass! I was honest and supplied all the information i had on the guitar. Its up to the individual to go off and do their homework and check up on the details. If not, i dont believe ignorance is an excuse for a refund.

I have been thinking, if there is any doubts about my honesty...paypal or ebay or whoever, can go back in their archive and see for themselves that i myself bought this Bass as a 1974 model about 5 years ago.

Edited February 16, 2010 by SMEE

[SMEE]

The buyer was taking a wee bit of a gamble here, and probably thought he was on to a good thing.

Yer not wrong JB. I am also of that belief.....such is the nature of ebay. Conversley, do we think he would be as quick to get in touch hd the guitar been worth a fortune? I have been on Fender forum about this guitar...and have been told that the neck alone, could be worth more than the guy paid for the whole guitar!

I also took a punt by sticking it on ebay...as it could have sold for a hell of a lot less than i paid for it.

[TopSix]

I put a ps3 game up for auction on eBay and the person who won the auction didn't pay. I ended up hsing to pay fees and will never sell on it again. Not talking big amounts in my case though. Think from future I'll stick to gumtree.