Setantas Offering

[absent friend]

I may be looking at this from the wrong angle but at a time when we are trying to increase crowds Setanta kicks us in the teeth. Monday night attending or Monday night viewing? No contest, in my opinion.

Lets consider the reason for Setanta paying the money they did to screen this match.

They sell adverts!  Adverts can only be seen by people watching TV. Crowds at matches must annoy Setanta as they are not playing the game - staying at home watching the match AND THE ADVERTS.

A half empty park - and how often do we see that now on televised matches - even international matches, is the way the game will go as more of the current paying public will prefer to sit at home with their can of beer in front of the telly.

Once this happens of course it will be £10 to view the match of your choice AND watch the adverts.

Someone said the clubs sold their souls to Setanta, well I happen to think that the clubs have sold their future  as there will be no local team as we now know it.  Only big teams with huge support playing in super leagues will be seen as there will be no small clubs left and we will still sit at home with cans of beer watching the 3 Scottish teams - Celtic, Rangers and Others United!

Far fetched? Try balancing the books with a reducing crowd coming through your gate every match!

[+Gringo]

As far as i'm concerned Setanta can go to ****. The future of football as a spectator sprort is fast becomming a thing of the past. Money rules so feck the fans - as always.

All stadiums involved in live TV games should install cardboard cut outs in the seats to show a full house and broadcast crowd noises over the PA system (but not a TCS as the PA system is pants) these sound effects would then give the 'live' feeling to the game - just for TV.

Alternatively - Supporters of teams involved in Live games should be able to pay the same price at the turnstiles as it costs sit at home and watch it.

[Johnboy]

It's a big problem isn't it....? As TV coverage has improved so much over the years, so the attendances have dropped in proportion. The superb HD format becoming well established now and will exacerbate the problem.  £10 to view a match is already here.... whether you choose the luxury of your own armchair, or fork out £20 to £25 to sit in a cold windswept Tulloch Stadium, where you can neither drink nor smoke... even hurling abuse at players & officials is now frowned upon - as is mooning opposing fans..!! There are so many killjoys out there It's hard to see where more bums on seats will come from... hard to understand as well especially with the fast attractive scintillating style of play on view throughout the SPL...!!

Are we now heading for an era in which run of the mill fixtures will take place behind closed doors?

Ah well - think of the savings in policing & stewarding costs.....

[Kingsmills]

No but I can see a situation where crowdsare let in free or virtually free to act as television extras.

[Guest Bonzo]

.............. and these crowds let in free would start to appreciate what a good experience it is to be at a football match, attendances would soar and we'd be back to the days of huge crowds ...............

It's easy to blame TV.

English crowds are on the increase - despite Sky dictating the fixture schedule.

I think that diminishing crowds in Scotland are a result of a poor product,

which is largely due to a poor league and cup set up.

It would be interesting to see the affect on crowds of a 16 team top flight, who play each other twice a season. 

A fair League where you see each team at home only once in the league and so look forward to the experience.

A league large enough to ensure that 90% of teams are not too scared of the prospect of relegation to go out and play football.

Let the TV income continue to flow in. Used to reduce gate prices in a good League set up it could be a wonderful thing.

[mainstander]

The fundamentle problem here is that the economics of football is crazy. You have a full time pool of players who only work productively - ie in home games - an average of 90 minutes every fortnight. This means that gate receits dont come close to paying for their wages so you have to look at other sources of income.

This is where TV comes in. They pay big money so are entitled to call the shots when it comes to what they want to transmit. You cant have it both ways. If you want to balance the books you have to accept lost revinue as a result of what Setanta etc require.

Televised football is very attractive indeed when you can watch the best in the world, or even your own side from time to time, from the comnfort of youre living room, quaffing a few beers. But there is a down side for clubs taking the money.

I think the relationship is called "Faustian" (?) but I'm not sure why. It certainly involves selling out and taking a hit in order to survive.

[Scotty]

It would be interesting to see the affect on crowds of a 16 team top flight, who play each other twice a season.  A fair League where you see each team at home only once in the league and so look forward to the experience. A league large enough to ensure that 90% of teams are not too scared of the prospect of relegation to go out and play football. Let the TV income continue to flow in. Used to reduce gate prices in a good League set up it could be a wonderful thing.

not often I agree with you Bonzo, but in this case, I do  :clapping04:

[CaleyD]

Stop televising live domestic matches and the problem is solved IMO.  If people in Scotland want to see a game in Scotland then they can get off their erse and get along to the Stadium.  There is a big enough market outside each respective country to still keep the TV companies going with income from Live Games and still encourage crowds to attend.

[Harry Chibber]

Stop televising live domestic matches and the problem is solved IMO.  If people in Scotland want to see a game in Scotland then they can get off their erse and get along to the Stadium.  There is a big enough market outside each respective country to still keep the TV companies going with income from Live Games and still encourage crowds to attend.

Get rid of tv coverage and you loose sponsership money, tv revenue & players that want their performances broadcasted to the world!!  You have to balance these things but fundimentaly I think it still comes down to us needing a 16 team league. If the league is extended then we're more likely to get a good tv deal, leading to teams being able to afford class players that people will make an effort to come to matches.... as sad as it is the reason Scottish football is in such a dire state is because there isn't enough money floating about the divisions and until something is done about our league no one is going to invest anything into any other team but the OF.

so yeh I agree with Bonzo aswell  :010:  :029:

[Johnboy]

Yeah... Reluctantly & surprisingly I'm with Bonzo on that too..... Not often he comes up with a sensible suggestion....

Wondering if he's maybe posting from some kind of rehab centre....!!

:001: :001:

[Scotty]

Stop televising live domestic matches and the problem is solved IMO.

dont agree - The TV companies are both devils and angels. Devils because they move stuff around the schedules making life difficult for the customers, yet angels because without them and the revenue they put into Scottish football many teams, OURS INCLUDED would simply not be commercially viable. You only have to look at our accounts in the seasons when we progressed in the cups to see the effect of TV revenue. They are what you might call 'a necessary evil'.

If people in Scotland want to see a game in Scotland then they can get off their erse and get along to the Stadium.  There is a big enough market outside each respective country to still keep the TV companies going with income from Live Games and still encourage crowds to attend.

Disagree again. As an ICT fan, if I were able to get to a game, I would go simple as that. However we have many fans who live outside the town, country or even continent who cant organise travel (whether thats for a saturday/sunday game or an evening game) and also many fans who are students or lower paid and who have to pick and choose games because of finances.

CaleyD ... I fear the solution is not as simple as you suggest and although the TV companies and SPL give no thought to the punters in moving the games, which they should, one of the root causes of the malaise is the product itself.

A league where teams play each other 3 or 4 times a season plus maybe twice more in cups just doesnt fire up the imagination in the way it might if there were 15/17/19 other teams that you were guaranteed to play twice per season and maybe meet in the cup. As has been said earlier in the thread, a small league like this also jacks up the fear factor for relegation and teams are scared to play for fear of getting a bad result and we end up with the turgid effluent that 3517 poor souls had to endure on Saturday.

I dont have the formula for making it all better - I dont think anyone has, but one thing is for sure, a shakeup is needed within the game if it is to ever go on an upward spiral instead of the constant decline we have seen so far.

[CaleyD]

Think you misunderstood what I said - I was not talking about stopping live matches being televised, just not domestic matches - i.e. No Live Scottish games shown in Scotland, no live English games shown in England etc etc.  Scottish matches could still be transmitted live outside of Scotland which is why I said their would still be a viable commercial basis for televising games.

It wouldn't necessarily stop the issue of moving games etc, but it would be one of the many things which could be done to increase attendances, including the suggestions for a revamped league structure etc.

[Scotty]

Think you misunderstood what I said - I was not talking about stopping live matches being televised, just not domestic matches - i.e. No Live Scottish games shown in Scotland, no live English games shown in England etc etc.  Scottish matches could still be transmitted live outside of Scotland which is why I said their would still be a viable commercial basis for televising games

I understood you perfectly CaleyD .... just disagreed.

An ICT match is obviously not viable outside the UK (unless playing one of the OF) as Setanta make it ridiculously impossible to watch anyone other than the OF (and even thats a rigmarole). To a certain extent I can understand this thinking as a couple of hundred ICT supporters dotted around the globe would hardly bring in as much money as 10s of thousands of the displaced OF fans so expecting to see a live ICT game on TV or making setanta tv available domestically in north america is perhaps a pipe dream as they themselves would not be able to attract advertisers.

However, I dont see why they dont market the highlights package to a company like Fox Sports World (ie. SKY !!) or TSN (Canadian Sports Channel). Failing that, it would be nice to be able to pay to view the feed from the game on their website if it was available - something with far less overhead as we both know - and that just doesnt happen.

Moving over to domestic televising of games - I disagree that it should be blacked out because I think those who are able to get to the game will still go to it .... Your idea would penalise the likes of Mantis, RiG, Naelifts, Govan Jaggie, Coias etc because, through no fault of their own, the game is now being played (for example) on a Monday night but only broadcast outside the UK. Unless they have a helicopter standing by, they just could not get to it and to stop them viewing it would be madness as they couldnt get there anyway.

I dont know what the answer is but a 'one size fits all' solution like blacking out the game is not workable as one size never fits all (again ... something we both know  :015:) ... we have to live with Setanta and the SPL in their decisions about which games to televise, but if they are not making sensible suggestions, then perhaps they could have pressure put on them by official supporters organisations to actually establish a dialogue so that fans or fans associations could help them come up with a solution where everyone wins or at least where common sense prevails ....

[Johnboy]

There would be rioting on the streets of Engerland if live football of any kind was no longer shown on TV....

Well...yes I know...there is anyway.... what I mean is it would get much worse..... :006: :006:

[CaleyD]

I just can't help but feel that it is TV that has brought about many of the problems we now face.  None of the huge financial issues ever existed before Football became such a big thing on TV, crowds were bigger, atmosphere was better, people actually supported their local teams and went to see them instead of just buying the strip and watching them on the box and never setting foot in their "teams" stadium.

You will never get rid of the problems TV creates because clubs have become dependant on the income it provides and are too quick to sell out to the highest bidder for the short term gain instead of thinking about the fans and the long term.

As has been stated, an ICT match may have very little draw overseas for TV viewers, but it is the same here, the more they show of other teams on the TV, the harder it is to attract new and young fans along to TCS.  I am glad to see us playing SPL football, but it now appears that the cost of that is selling the soul of the club to the TV companies, not just for us but for nearly all teams outside the top 4 in Scotland.

What seems even sadder still is the fact we are powerless to do anything about it.  We simply have to sit back and watch as the heart is ripped out of everything it means to be a football fan in Scotland.  And with everything else that is going on with these FBO's etc it's no wonder people are happier to sit at home and watch a match than they are to get along to the stadium.

Where does it all stop???  As a club we managed to balance the books last season and have a bit left in the bank, even with the additional costs of the new stands and the USH (which we paid a part of).  Do we really need the extra revenue from the expanded TV deal and are we willing to pay the cost of tht with diminished crowds and dwindling atmosphere.  Are we becoming the victims of other clubs financial mismanagement and being drawn into these deals because other clubs are in such a bad way that they have to take every penny that is offered just to survive???

The whole feckin thing has gone mad, TV money is like a drug to many clubs - it is out of control and the only thing that is going to reverse the trend is when it hits rock bottom (and it will sooner rather than later), until then it will just be one short term fix after another.

[Guest Suspicious Mind]

This is just another example of "progress". Well that's what they lead us to believe.

Football crowds, outwith the so called elite, have been dwindling for years with the odd blip. Like all aspects of our lives the desire for consumer ease of access, at an instant, to our favourite or necessary activities brings drawbacks as well as benefits. I'm sure I'm not alone in enjoying interactive televised sport, paused or recordered to suit my life or internet shopping because I can't be ersed leaving the house.

We can't turnback the clock and have to accept being messed about to pleased the media who feed our game financially. Its the same as the old corner shop and the supermarket. We all spend our money with the big guys then mourn the passing of the wee guy. In the same way, Sky and Setanta subscriptions continue to grow and we all miss Saturday afternoons.

What really annoys me is the attitude of the police in Scotland and their refusal to do Friday night games. There is something attractive about being able to start the weekend with a match and I really don't understand why this cannot be organised. It seems an easier solution, albeit not the ideal 3pm ever Saturday, than Mondays. The town might even get a boost with visiting fans choosing to stay the night. Maybe it's a bit too much to expect our public services to move with the times and remember that we pay their wages!

[CaleyD]

The whole police thing does seem a bit baffling, you'd think they would be more welcoming of a situation where they had a few thousand people in a controlled environment rather than swanning about the City.

[Guest Suspicious Mind]

Daft  thing is that even when they chnage kick off times in conjunction with the police i.e. the last Old Firm match, they open bars in the East End of Glasgow at 8am so all the punters can top up from Friday night and get well pished before kick off! This the same city council that look after boath the police board and the licences!

Saturday night is Glasgow must have been fun!

[Johnboy]

This is as good a debate as we've had in a while on this site.

Maybe there is a case for suspending televised matches in Scotland for a set period to see if it would help attendances...

I don't think it would... peoples' houses are so much warmer & more comfortable than they were in a bygone era.... so many now take multi-channel satellite TV, DvD players and all the rest completely for granted.... In relative terms it is very cheap entertainment.... unlike a sojourn along to your local football ground, where after a couple of pints on the way there, a match programme, a luke warm pie at half time, and a couple of pints on the way home, doesn't leave a heck of a lot of change out of £40.

I was brought up in an era (in the west of Scotland) where clubs like St Mirren & Killie regularly had attendances of 18 to 22,000... At Ibrox & Parkhead 35 to 40,000 was the norm unless they were playing each other, when it was up around 100,000. I'm just glad I experienced many games in these days, because the atmosphere nowadays does not compare... apart from maybe Hamden in a cup final or international fixture.

Something has to be done.... Someone suggested squezing more money out the TV companies and letting the punters in for free....That could be worth a try.... we can't just sit back and watch this slide continue....

[Bridge_Ender]

Really not a fan of a Monday night kick off, I think it is possibly the worst possible time to hold a match... Midweek matches tend to attract lower crowds anyway and this will be even worse.

The issue with the police is that they apparently already have enough to deal with on a friday night without a football game to police also. Not sure I understand this argument, surely a sizeable number of those who would be in the pubs would be at the game?? And how many officers does it take to police a match? Does anyone know the quota?

I think this potentially, could be an even worse attendance than the Kilmarnock game on New Years a couple years back! 

[Scotty]

The issue with the police is that they apparently already have enough to deal with on a friday night without a football game to police also. Not sure I understand this argument, surely a sizeable number of those who would be in the pubs would be at the game?? And how many officers does it take to police a match? Does anyone know the quota?

Aberdeen game would be a higher quota of police as its a bigger game than say St Mirren or Dunfermline. I have no idea of the quota required but I think its more a case of spreading already thin resources even more thinly as not ALL of those fans at the game would be in town - maybe a few hundred out of several thousand if you are lucky. Also, the officers on duty would presumably have to go through some form of debriefing and also have a break before hitting the streets - so it  might be 11pm or later before they were available.

We also have no idea if Northern Constabulary were against it as it was ACPOS as a whole who refused to do it so some forces may have been for it and some against but stood together with a unified response.

[+Gringo]

I was able to get to the Aberdeen match until they moved this fixture, now I'm unable to go. My money that was set aside for the turnstiles of ICT will now be going elsewhwere. But, hey, the TV companies have more money than me so it must make it right to screw the fans around. Feck um!

[Harry Chibber]

I was able to get to the Aberdeen match until they moved this fixture, now I'm unable to go. My money that was set aside for the turnstiles of ICT will now be going elsewhwere. But, hey, the TV companies have more money than me so it must make it right to screw the fans around. Feck um!

To be fair, it's not as though you have not been given plenty of notice about the change in date for you to change your plans.  If I was in Inverness or stayed around the area I wouldn't be too bothered but living in Stirling at least now I have the oppertunity to watch the match on TV and put some cash aside for another match.  The club gets TV revenue to make up for any missing fans, fans can save money and go to the next match, yes there might be less people at the stadium but lets face it I think our players are used to playing infront of a lack luster support these days!!

[Guest Sandy Cromarty]

Live football TV broadcasts  have been around almost as long as we have had TV, the terrestial broadcasts were hijacked by SKY etc when it was realised how much revenue was available from pub and club viewing, not sure of the exact figures but I believe pub monthly payments to Sky can be in the hundreds of pounds so it is a lucrative business.

Now that we live in a world with increasingly more leisure time where we afford time for other pursuits, football attendances, especially in Scotland ( and mainly because of what has been mentioned previously) , were in severe decline and hence clubs were experiencing severe losses, the advent of Sky sport football broadcasts were a financial godsend and we witnessed a resurgence in the game at all levels, in fact so well done are the broadcasts that it has brought new younger fans to the game.

For our own ICT I can tell you that the morning after the Celtic game I had to phone various guys about some upcoming work and two of them, not football fans, mentioned how they had seen my team on telly in the pub, so I know that we will lose some gate money from less Aberdeen fans on the mon night but I would say that we will benefit in other ways.

[kaiser]

Cash is king isn't it...well we've all signed up so we had better get ready for a big bite of the sh**t sandwich.

Sandy, what sort of 'resurgence' are you on about??? A resurgence of overrated over paid players half as good as their predecessors bleeding  dry the naive clubs who are throwing borrowed cash at them??

Followed by ten years of cost cutting and save the club campaigns , for the lucky ones.

Aye, what a resurgence, I'll have some of that then - not the resurgence, just some of whatever you have been smoking.