Refuseniks

[BornCaley]

I suppose one of us should give Dougal what he wants.

I was Caledonian FC before the merger. I personally was against the merger with Thistle as i thought Caley could go it alone. I suppose with hindsight i wasnt aware of all the facts at that time. Later i saw the reasons for the merger more clearly and am glad that the 2 clubs went down this route. I wasnt part of any Anti Merger group nor did i refuse to attend any ICT games. I have always believed in ICT from the word go and will never stop supporting them.

I do know of a few Caledonian FC fans who refuse to lend their support to ICT to this day. Their loss and they blend well into the background along with other fans who support the OF teams because they dont know how to support their local team.

As for Mr Bannerman, i believe as he wrote a book on the merger ( Against All Odds), that probably gives him a little edge over the rest of us as far as facts are concerned.

[+jagster]

It was quite interesting to deabte this one the first four or five... or even six!... times it popped up on this forum. But it's now got quite tedious and I'm not even going to dignify the question with a vote on the poll.

But let's look at it this way.

After the Howden End and a lot further afield was trawled again and again and again for Caley "anti" sentiment for the 1st December 1993 Rose Street vote, 226 people voted against the merger. This is the biggest anti merger vote that there ever was.

We also know that a great number of that 226 subsequently became regular attenders. But let's be conservative and say that half the "NO" voters didn't attend matches. That's 113 and if you make a very generous addition of 87 from the much smaller Thistle support, that get's you to what I suspect is a vastly over generous 200 refuseniks compared with the 1500 or so fans which was the average gate in the early days.

17 years on, a significant proportion of that generous 200 are either dead or have left the area. There MAY be 100 left which out of a core home support of about 3000 is a VERY small price to pay for the formation of a club which represents the whole of Inverness.

Had Caley gone alone, I don't think the support would have been anything like as large and the financial backing from the Council and the community and business certainly wouldn't have been.

Were we really a much smaller report charles? i remember many games at Kingsmills where there was an abundance of jags fans and remember a fair few at telford St where the Howden end was far from full and the canal end was abundant in red and black fans. The original question however about refuseniks makes me think of at least two jags fans who have never watched ICT play and never will (Their loss) no matter how much i try to persuade them? I personally decided away back in 73? or whenever we lost out to Ferranti Thistle later to become Meadowbank later to become livingstone that i would support any inverness team to join the scottish league, Inverness utd or whatever it was decided to be called. We have to see the bigger picture and those that have decided with their small/narrow mindedness not to support a merged team have lost out on a wonderful journey, from beating arbroath in our first league game with Herchy's hat trick to the famous celtic game and the awful game where county humped us. It's been a fantastic journey which many of us could never have imagined back in those days and it's far from finished. This wonderful voyage goes on and on, up and down and hopefully for many many years our children and their children can enjoy the the magic of ICT

[+jagster]

Well said borncaley

[ictchris]

The anti-merger crew head down to Findlays to talk about the good old days of away games at Rothes.

[+jagster]

I used to go to Findlays when it was reflections

Ordnance before that - god I sound old

[DALNEIGHCALEY]

The anti-merger crew head down to Findlays to talk about the good old days of away games at Rothes.

Finlays ( as it was ) is a meeting point for a lot of ICT fans before and after games .

[TheKnowledge]

What will be more interesting than the poll results will be to see how many thought it would be worth voting. I am personally surprised that as many as 4 have done so. I'm with the "yawn" and "don't really care" faction.

I think, seeing as this is a discussion board, for Inverness Caledonian Thistle Footbal Club / Caley Jags / Rangers of the North, Dougal has picked the right place to discuss his/her thoughts. I, as a younger fan, find some of those questions interesting historical points.

[Charles Bannerman]

Were we really a much smaller report charles?

I take it you mean "support" and that's a wee typo but the answer is still "Yes" - you unfortunately were a lot smaller. That was actually one of the problems which meant that Thistle was a severely weakened entity when the merger came around - lack of money, including gate receipts.

Another case in point was the September 9th 1993 votes. Caley went for the merger 55-50. At the Jags meeting it was 33-12 so less than half the attendance. On the other hand Jags were at a fundamental disadvantage since only MEN were allowed to go to their meetings!

Let me give you this anecdote. I wasn't in the original Caley meeting since I only joined afterwards (OK, it was in order to get into meetings for reporting purposes!). But I did doorstep their original one in the Muirtrown. As the season ticketholders came down the stairs afterwards, somebody called out "Jags have gone for it by three to one!"

The response from one wag was instant.

"Christ! There weren't as many as four at the Jags meeting were there?" :biggrin:

[old caley girl]

This interesting Charles - never realised the men only vote re the Jags. As we are talking about fairly recent history Im surprised the vote was legal. Never realised that sexism was rampant at Kingsmills - was always welcomed and treated well when visiting the boardroom with Caley.

The first meeting at the Muirtown was different to the rest, much more business like and ordered.Members for and against the merger spoke their case and were listened to. The Rose St meetings were much different. Both sides and gained more support and members and yes there were folk there that I had never seen at the games before or probably since.

However as Ive already stated Im now convinced the right thing happened. Smee I am convinced that Caley alone would not have received the same success as the merged team. Caley had spent a lot of time and energy looking for a suitable site to move to. One site identified was the ground below Charleston Academy and there was a public meeting re this as well and support was limited. The ground beside the Merkinch School and right along to Glendoe Terrace was looked at and Clach were very much against this move. Another option was the Canal Pitches and Charles might remember better than me that this option actually reached the Council as I remember attending a council meeting at the Town House. There was little spport outside the club for Caley to go it alone.

[Yngwie]

This interesting Charles - never realised the men only vote re the Jags. As we are talking about fairly recent history Im surprised the vote was legal.

Don't say that, there are certain people who will now start trying to get that vote overturned!

[Charles Bannerman]

This interesting Charles - never realised the men only vote re the Jags.

One site identified was the ground below Charleston Academy and there was a public meeting re this as well and support was limited. The ground beside the Merkinch School and right along to Glendoe Terrace was looked at and Clach were very much against this move. Another option was the Canal Pitches and Charles might remember better than me that this option actually reached the Council as I remember attending a council meeting at the Town House. There was little spport outside the club for Caley to go it alone.

On the first point, it was even worse than that. Fiona Larg the INE CEO had been doing all the negotiating with the clubs and in December 1993 it got really critical with Jags on the verge of pulling out. There were crisis meetings with both clubs but, with the whole scheme on the verge of disintegration, Fiona wasn't allowed into the meeting at Kingsmill since she was a woman and her Chairman Norman Cordiner had to go instead!

On the second point, in 1991 Caley looked at Charleston but a public meeting made such a fuss that they were driven away by Resident Power. Canal Field was briefly looked at but the one that was followed up most thoroughly was the Carse. After long debate in 1992 on what became known as The Carse Farce, the District Council bombed it out. The following year it was raised again and hit the buffers a second time.

I actually believe that if Caley had got the Carse, they would never have voted for the merger(remember it was only 55-50) and gone it alone.

Inverness was that close to having a mediocre SFL team bumping away indefinitely in the region of the Second Division - something like Alloa I suspect.

[Charles Bannerman]

This interesting Charles - never realised the men only vote re the Jags. As we are talking about fairly recent history Im surprised the vote was legal.

Don't say that, there are certain people who will now start trying to get that vote overturned!

As far as I am aware, Caledonian FC never changed its constitution on the basis of the merger and is still, for instance, constitutionally bound to have a registered office in Telford Street!!! :biggrin:

(Unless in the very dying days when all 576 Season Tickets had expired and only the Life Members were left, they quietly sorted things.)

OCG.... get a hold of my book. All is explained there!

Edited March 13, 2011 by Charles Bannerman

[Joe DiMaggio]

Inverness was that close to having a mediocre SFL team bumping away indefinitely in the region of the Second Division - something like Alloa I suspect.

I really doubt that. All the new fans who supported the merged team would have probably supported any league team in Inverness. So I think the crowds would be similar to what they are now.

[dougal]

Were we really a much smaller report charles?

I take it you mean "support" and that's a wee typo but the answer is still "Yes" - you unfortunately were a lot smaller. That was actually one of the problems which meant that Thistle was a severely weakened entity when the merger came around - lack of money, including gate receipts.

Another case in point was the September 9th 1993 votes. Caley went for the merger 55-50. At the Jags meeting it was 33-12 so less than half the attendance. On the other hand Jags were at a fundamental disadvantage since only MEN were allowed to go to their meetings!

Let me give you this anecdote. I wasn't in the original Caley meeting since I only joined afterwards (OK, it was in order to get into meetings for reporting purposes!). But I did doorstep their original one in the Muirtrown. As the season ticketholders came down the stairs afterwards, somebody called out "Jags have gone for it by three to one!"

The response from one wag was instant.

"Christ! There weren't as many as four at the Jags meeting were there?" :biggrin:

All this proves to me anyway that you ain't the dye in the wool Caley man you make yourself out to be

dougal

This interesting Charles - never realised the men only vote re the Jags. As we are talking about fairly recent history Im surprised the vote was legal.

Don't say that, there are certain people who will now start trying to get that vote overturned!

As far as I am aware, Caledonian FC never changed its constitution on the basis of the merger and is still, for instance, constitutionally bound to have a registered office in Telford Street!!! :biggrin:

(Unless in the very dying days when all 576 Season Tickets had expired and only the Life Members were left, they quietly sorted things.)

OCG.... get a hold of my book. All is explained there!

All is explained by a very Pro-merger author with very pro-merger views which no doubt suited the club at the time of publication

While i'm not slating the content of "Against all odds" I prefer to hear views from both merger camps not just the one, that way I can make my own mind up

dougal

[+jagster]

Not so sure about that one Joe, surely if Caley had gone it alone that would have left one 3rd div team and 2 highland league teams for Inverness to support and I personally would have carried on watching the jags with very little interest in Caley as a single entity. Then my kids would have come with me etc and maybe not the biggest support but surely the dilution of fans with 3 teams in town may have led as charles has said to less initial success which may have curtailed the rapid rise we enjoyed and therefore more mediocrity with less fans etc.

All speculation now I suppose as we all have a team which all of us and Inverness should be rightly proud of.

Out of interest what about Kingsmills Park - was there ever a financial gain to the merged club from the sale for the Nursing home that stands there now

Edited March 13, 2011 by jagster

[The Long Man]

What? You're still trying to make your mind up? Take your time, we wouldn't want to rush you - the club and the town are anxiously awaiting your verdict. I suppose conspiracy theories, like cheese, get riper with age

Edited March 13, 2011 by The Long Man

[12th Man]

At one end of the scale- I call myself a fan but dont go to any games/I go to one or two games a year because my neighbor invites me.

to I'm a season ticket holder, I go to all the cup games and wear Caledonian or Thistle pants to work.

How can you differentiate between a die hard fan and a pretend fan. If 1000 fans say they will never be back then how do you know they were fans in the first place?

If you look at current division 3 attendance stats 200-800 just guessing haven't checked.

When we won the div 3 cup we had an attendance of around 3000 at home games, Scottish football was a new thing in Inverness and the team found it hard not to win games, I think we won the cup as early as March that year.

So if that many stayed away, then why did the amalgamated fan base increase instead of decrease.

Why is this still being mentioned?

We have great investment in our fans of the future, we have football training for the youngsters, cheap seats in the family section, Ict junior strips selling well, the players go out and promote ICT, free seats for schools etc

The sweetest thing of all is parents who have been Rangers and Celtic fans all their life and their kids are growing up as ICT supporters.

Give me, talking about how well ICT are doing, the fans,the bar, the noise the primary school pupils against Dundee, the players, this site,just anything positive.

Instead of a topic with dwindling interest that applies to less people every time its mentioned.

ICT is the future.

[The Mantis]

This subject seems to rear its head now and again so i'd thought it was time to set up a poll so the subject could get put to bed once and for all

dougal

:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: Brilliant.

Edited March 13, 2011 by TheMantis

[caley100]

Aye, you and Dougal good mates now eh?

[SMEE]

Inverness was that close to having a mediocre SFL team bumping away indefinitely in the region of the Second Division - something like Alloa I suspect.

I really doubt that. All the new fans who supported the merged team would have probably supported any league team in Inverness. So I think the crowds would be similar to what they are now.

I agree Joe.....FACT....in the 50s and 60s, Caley were regularily playing to crowds as big...if not bigger than what they average now, when they were in the Highland League. Dont belive me....go get yourself a copy of Rod Clynes book, In A Different League....its all in there.

I see no evidence to suggest that Caley on their own would have been less of a draw than ICT....if anything...i think they could have had a bigger, more loyal fanbase!

[Joe DiMaggio]

Inverness was that close to having a mediocre SFL team bumping away indefinitely in the region of the Second Division - something like Alloa I suspect.

I really doubt that. All the new fans who supported the merged team would have probably supported any league team in Inverness. So I think the crowds would be similar to what they are now.

I agree Joe.....FACT....in the 50s and 60s, Caley were regularily playing to crowds as big...if not bigger than what they average now, when they were in the Highland League. Dont belive me....go get yourself a copy of Rod Clynes book, In A Different League....its all in there.

I see no evidence to suggest that Caley on their own would have been less of a draw than ICT....if anything...i think they could have had a bigger, more loyal fanbase!

I think that it would be similar to just now but not bigger. I doubt there is anyone who would support Caledonian as a league team but not ICT if they had no alleigances before. All the new fans and youngsters would have supported the league team of Inverness no matter who they were.

I don't think you can compare things to the 1950's or 60's though as every team had much bigger crowds back then but it has no relevance on what they get today. Teams like Hibs were able to get 50,000 back then and as with the rest of the country these attendance for Caledonian did not last so you can't really cite the 50's and 60's as evidence for big crowds and not more up to date attendances Caledonian got in the 90's.

Edited March 13, 2011 by Joe DiMaggio

[SanMiguel]

I love how Dougal now writes his own name after each answer!

Mr dougal always has his name at the bottom of each post!

[Yngwie]

I think it's to remind himself which identity he is using.

[Alex MacLeod]

Had Caley gone it alone I'd still be a Thistle fan.

Personally, I believe the merger had to happen. Had it not then the team that was accepted into the league would now be playing lower league football. They may have had a brush with div 1 but that would be it. The fanbase may have been in the couple of thousand bracket. Who knows. But the main reason they'd never have reached the hieghts of now is not the support of the fans but the support of the council and of the money men. The local authority could not provide the support they did if only one of the three main teams went ahead. A number of our regular sponsors supported one or other of the two teams. Those funds would have been split. I dont even believe our biggest investor would have put so much in had the merger not have happened.

Those who refuse to support the new team are to be admired for their loyalty to the cause but would they have supported their own team if it had gone alone. I know three persons who, although they took part in the debates and votes of 93, were Celtic ST holders then and still are now. One of those three does grace the TCS now and again because his son wants to go. But only on days when ICT are home and Celtic away.

[Charles Bannerman]

Out of interest what about Kingsmills Park - was there ever a financial gain to the merged club from the sale for the Nursing home that stands there now

There are about half a dozen recent points that might be worth perlying to but quite honestly I can't be bothered because we've been round this block so often.

So, briefly...

Yes, Kingsmills Park, once Jags realised they owned it and Martin Ross's interdict on its disposal was lifted, was eventually sold for ?486,000, the proceeds going to ICT.

Alex also makes reference to ICT's biggest benefactor.... who used to be a regular at Kingsmills!

Also someone made reference to the current level of support including a lot of new fans. True, but that level of support has only materialised since joining the SPL. The 3000s that appeared from time to time in 96-97 were entirely down to the combination of a first ever trophy and the novelty factor. Never forget that for many years in D1, ICT's home gate (including visiting fans) was typically about 1900... and I actually doubt if Caley would ever have got to D1. That is also before you consider the public funds and commercial sponsorship which Caley alone would not have got.

I also had to have a laugh at Dougal's suggestion that I make myself out to be a dyed in the wool Caley (sic) man but fail the test because I was late buying a season ticket in 1993. (Just checking that Mantis hasn't already used all of these up!) Actually that is the only season ticket I have ever bought for anywhere since I have a press pass and I only bought it to get into the merger meetings. Best 20 quid I ever spent!!