Refuseniks

[Yngwie]

The word "refusenik" was the term created to describe Jews who were refused permission to emigrate from the Soviet Union.

So I suppose one thing they have in common with the people we are debating is that there aren't many of them in Inverness.

[Sir C the 3rd]

I'm not trying to get in an argument about it Charles, if they dont want to attend games I don't really care. Nowhere do I say they are "rabid die hard fans" i'm saying that maybe a few were and others were now and again fans. Like I said in 17 years a lot of ICT fans have had kids etc and spread the word and got they're kids and kids friends attending games so attendances have grown steadily over the years. I'm sure you remember the 94/95 season once the initial novelty subsided there were attendances around the 3-400 mark. The flip side of that, the fact there is more than 6 people who dont attend games due to the merger, wether they were die hard fans or now and again fans (from both clubs)its also likely they passed their thoughts onto they're kids and now the kids (some of them at least) don't support ICT.

So personally I think the knock on effect has seen ICT lose out on a not insignificant number of fans. Thats all I'm really getting at. Also at my workplace there are indeed at least 20 people who no longer set foot at an ICT game. PM me Charles and i'll let you know where it is and i'm sure you'll agree with me!

One last thing, I barely recall anyone who went to highland league games that didn;t have their "big team" and if the merger was the excuse they were looking for to go and watch them more often, then thats fair enough!

But I do agree with you that they are not missed. Their money maybe, but they have not hindered ICT in any way and I also agree that the merger was the only way to go forward.

Edited March 15, 2011 by Sir C the 3rd

[CaleyD]

My oldman was of a Thistle persuasion prior to the merger and has never set foot inside TCS. Whilst that came about from the merger, it has nothing to do with any anti-Caley sentiment and more to do with the fact that he despised the idea of his team becoming owned by a small number of people based on how big their wallets were instead of it being owned by the fans (now you know where I get it from). I guess you could say he follows from afar as he genuinely wants to see ICT do well, he even places their success above that of his "big" team (Hearts)....but you'll never see him at a game.

I wouldn't class him as a refusenik as you don't hear him grumble about the merger or try and turn people against ICT....it's just not for him anymore.

[BornCaley]

well like it or not the merger topic still causes debate. Im sure it wont be the last debate we have on this subject. I actually like the odd trip down memory lane,after all there are so many members on here who never experienced Caley or Thistle or were too young to remember them.

On a quick side topic and a note to Mr Bannerman- The Beatles played Dingwall Town Hall on January 4th 1963, 7 days prior to the release of their 1st No 1 single " Please Please me" I imagne they were already a bit famous, certainly more so than their previous trip to the Highlands in June 1960 backing Johnny Gentle.

Edited March 16, 2011 by BornCaley

[The Long Man]

Whatever the figure plucked out of the air is for 'refuseniks', Charles is surely right that there is no evidence, other than anecdotal and prejudicial, that the number was significant. Nor do I believe that any of them would have had significant influence on many others, including family members. Even if you dream up some fancifully large number, as some would like to do, it is more than offset by the numbers of new ICT fans who would not have been persuaded by a Caley or Thistle toiling in the lower leagues. The dreamers want to add a mythical number of refuseniks to the current base of ICT and claim that they would have all gone to watch a cash-strapped Caley playing in the Carse or wherever against Elgin and Brechin. It is all smoke, mirrors and whisky dreams. Nice bit of nostalgia and longing for the old days, but it ignores the amazing ride we've had with ICT, which we'd never had without the merger. If ICT had spluttered and failed and were mired in debt and stuck in div 2 or 3 then you might have a case. That ICT have been as astonishingly successful as they have proves the point: the merger worked. A few have fallen by the wayside - hundreds, probably thousands, have been royally entertained. Something was lost, a lot more was gained.

[PullMyFinger]

I know one who used to frequent Telford Street but refuses to go now, he'd rather follow Celtic but I doubt he'd force that onto his family (his father was a Rangers fan).

[Scarlet Pimple]

I don't always agree with Charles Bannerperson but I have given him a green point in each of his last two posts because he talks common sense and I find his passionate presentations perfectly-polished, polite and proppa.

Also, Charlie has a good brain (c'mon people, it's true) and the Pimple has tried to hack into it more than once and has been rebuffed in a state of perplexed confusion. No doubt it is his profession that has allowed him to build up his impenetrable, shy reserve (sometimes grossly mistaken by some of the younger set in the ICT proletariat as snobbery) but one day he will give it all up and finally be able to relax with a wee drammie in his hand and more than a tale of two cities on his professorial,literary lips.

I raise my glass to a Man of Letters blue and Stalwart Statistics. A Lad O' Pairts, and no mistake.

And to Caley Mad in Berks I seek to make his day by advising that he also has received a green dot for reminding us all of his advanced age and knowledge concerning the Jupie Mitchell, Ginger MacKenzie team which was my introduction to Caley at the even more advanced age of 11 years old at that precise moment in time. Who can forget the worn wooden steps of the tree-lined Telford Street terraces of yore?

Yes, CMIB,these were the days and regarding those few remaining fans who still bears grudges about the Merger, I say a pox on all their houses. Just get off your huffy, backward-facing chairs and support the heroic ICT who have done us all VERY proud from the City of Inverness over these 17 long years of unbelievable advancement Against All Odds.

Do not bear grudges because you are the ones who are losing out on some great games of football and, sadly, you are the loser not ICT.

[Charles Bannerman]

I'm sure you remember the 94/95 season once the initial novelty subsided there were attendances around the 3-400 mark.

Yes, I remember the the 94/95 season very well indeed - when the average attendance was 1259 (which is a lot more than you would see on average at Kingsmills and Telford Street combined.). On ONE occasion in 94/95 there was an error where many were missed out and it was mistakenly reported at just over 400 which was a long way short of any of the other matches.

As I was saying - selective use of statistics.

And thanks to Born Caley for setting the record straight. The newspaper report I saw quoted the concert as having taken place "48 years ago" which made it 1963 - rather late indeed for the Beatles only to have attracted 19. But now we learn that this was a much more likely sounding 1960. I gather a local group called the Melotones attracted 1200 at the Strath the same night. I also head yesterday that, unlike the Beatles, The Melotones are still on the go!!!

[Alex MacLeod]

From information readily available on this site I can confirm that the average was indeed as Charles says for the season 94/95. Gates were always over 1000 till the last quarter of the season when they dropped to around the 700 mark. The lowest attendance was a tuesday night game against Albion Rovers. 491 watched them win 0-2. The highest was 3562 who watched us beat County 3-0. Even a friendly against Celtic on 17/09/94 could only muster 1143.

[Alex MacLeod]

How different the debate would have been had the powers that be made a different choice in 1973.

[Charles Bannerman]

How different the debate would have been had the powers that be made a different choice in 1973.

Alex... that one has always intrigued me!

[Sir C the 3rd]

I'm sure you remember the 94/95 season once the initial novelty subsided there were attendances around the 3-400 mark.

As I was saying - selective use of statistics.

But there was an attendance around the 400 mark though as you've proved. Like I say the novelty wore off and towards the end of that season, I believe someone else quoted around 700 on average for the last quarter. Not that any of this matters now, ICT are a successful club now, and have grown their fanbase very well in the last 17 years. Once again those fans who have stayed away have missed an amazing rise and missed out on lots of good times. But I do have a little grudging admiration for some of them who have stuck by what they believe is right for so long!

Edited March 16, 2011 by Sir C the 3rd

[Doofer]

What will be more interesting than the poll results will be to see how many thought it would be worth voting. I am personally surprised that as many as 4 have done so. I'm with the "yawn" and "don't really care" faction.

Agreed

[Kingsmills]

I have little doubt that Caley would have held their own in the lower reaches of the SFL had they alone gained league status, as indeed would have Thistle had they not been snubbed in favour of the Ferranti works team in the seventies.

However, I am in no doubt that they would not have attracted the fan base or sufficient financial imput from the commerecial or public sector to have ever had the resources to to finance full time football and thus reach the dizzy heights of the SPL.

That was a task that was challenging enough and almost bankrupted the club as things are.

I may not be typical but myself and my family would still be supporting Thistle in the Highland League rather than following the fortunes of Caley oscilating between the first and second divisions.

Edited March 18, 2011 by Kingsmills

[SMEE]

I have little doubt that Caley would have held their own in the lower reaches of the SFL had they alone gained league status, as indeed would have Thistle had they not been snubbed in favour of the Ferranti works team in the seventies.

However, I am in no doubt that they would not have attracted the fan base or sufficient financial imput from the commerecial or public sector to have ever had the resources to to finance full time football and thus reach the dizzy heights of the SPL.

That was a task that was challenging enough and almost bankrupted the club as things are.

I may not be typical but myself and my family would still be supporting Thistle in the Highland League rather than following the fortunes of Caley oscilating between the first and second divisions.

I know where your coming from....i too would have stuck with Caley in the Highland League had Thistle gone it alone. In fact...i may face ridicule here..but...id rather have stuck with Caley in the Highland League than ICT in the Scottish League. I just dont have anywhere near the same love for the merged team. Still....its what we got...so...i will support them

[dougal]

I have little doubt that Caley would have held their own in the lower reaches of the SFL had they alone gained league status, as indeed would have Thistle had they not been snubbed in favour of the Ferranti works team in the seventies.

However, I am in no doubt that they would not have attracted the fan base or sufficient financial imput from the commerecial or public sector to have ever had the resources to to finance full time football and thus reach the dizzy heights of the SPL.

That was a task that was challenging enough and almost bankrupted the club as things are.

I may not be typical but myself and my family would still be supporting Thistle in the Highland League rather than following the fortunes of Caley oscilating between the first and second divisions.

While we appreciate your input Kingsmills we have already came to the unanimous conclusion( well apart from Alex) that Thistle would probably have been no more unfortunately had Caledonian FC gone alone

I find the poll results very interesting reading and I thinks it safe to say that there are a lot more refuseniks out there than the average ICT fan likes to admit

Anyway I've done a bit more research into the merger over the last couple days and I've unearthed some very interesting points which maybe explain why there were refuseniks and why they still exist today

I find it staggering that both teams fans who were not season ticket holders were not polled regarding a proposed merger, surely this could have been done quite easily by handing out a small questionaire to all home fans as they came through the turnstiles

Why was it allegedly suggested to both memberships at the first vote that the Scottish league preferred a merged team and that a league place was guaranteed when this was definitely not the case at all?

Why did they allegedly not accept proxi votes from members that lived outside Inverness and could not attend in person?

They also allegedly failed to to inform the memberships that had the first vote gone against merging there would have been a second vote for a solo bid therefore misguiding them into believing that they were voting on a take it or leave it scenario?

IMHO mergergate didn't appear to have been handled very well by both previous clubs committees and as a result the refuseniks on both sides of the divide were born

Maybe Mr Mantis or Old Caley girl can confirm whether my findings were valid or not

dougal

[SMEE]

I have little doubt that Caley would have held their own in the lower reaches of the SFL had they alone gained league status, as indeed would have Thistle had they not been snubbed in favour of the Ferranti works team in the seventies.

However, I am in no doubt that they would not have attracted the fan base or sufficient financial imput from the commerecial or public sector to have ever had the resources to to finance full time football and thus reach the dizzy heights of the SPL.

That was a task that was challenging enough and almost bankrupted the club as things are.

I may not be typical but myself and my family would still be supporting Thistle in the Highland League rather than following the fortunes of Caley oscilating between the first and second divisions.

While we appreciate your input Kingsmills we have already came to the unanimous conclusion( well apart from Alex) that Thistle would probably have been no more unfortunately had Caledonian FC gone alone

I find the poll results very interesting reading and I thinks it safe to say that there are a lot more refuseniks out there than the average ICT fan likes to admit

Anyway I've done a bit more research into the merger over the last couple days and I've unearthed some very interesting points which maybe explain why there were refuseniks and why they still exist today

I find it staggering that both teams fans who were not season ticket holders were not polled regarding a proposed merger, surely this could have been done quite easily by handing out a small questionaire to all home fans as they came through the turnstiles

Why was it allegedly suggested to both memberships at the first vote that the Scottish league preferred a merged team and that a league place was guaranteed when this was definitely not the case at all?

Why did they allegedly not accept proxi votes from members that lived outside Inverness and could not attend in person?

They also allegedly failed to to inform the memberships that had the first vote gone against merging there would have been a second vote for a solo bid therefore misguiding them into believing that they were voting on a take it or leave it scenario?

IMHO mergergate didn't appear to have been handled very well by both previous clubs committees and as a result the refuseniks on both sides of the divide were born

Maybe Mr Mantis or Old Caley girl can confirm whether my findings were valid or not

dougal

I cant remember exactly what it was tht us non season ticket holders were polled on...but i deffo remember getting handed and filling out a questionaire regarding the merger at caley park

[CaleyD]

While we appreciate your input Kingsmills we have already came to the unanimous conclusion( well apart from Alex) that Thistle would probably have been no more unfortunately had Caledonian FC gone alone

We have?

I find the poll results very interesting reading and I thinks it safe to say that there are a lot more refuseniks out there than the average ICT fan likes to admit

You do?

Anyway I've done a bit more research into the merger over the last couple days and I've unearthed some very interesting points which maybe explain why there were refuseniks and why they still exist today

I find it staggering that both teams fans who were not season ticket holders were not polled regarding a proposed merger, surely this could have been done quite easily by handing out a small questionaire to all home fans as they came through the turnstiles

Why was it allegedly suggested to both memberships at the first vote that the Scottish league preferred a merged team and that a league place was guaranteed when this was definitely not the case at all?

Why did they allegedly not accept proxi votes from members that lived outside Inverness and could not attend in person?

They also allegedly failed to to inform the memberships that had the first vote gone against merging there would have been a second vote for a solo bid therefore misguiding them into believing that they were voting on a take it or leave it scenario?

IMHO mergergate didn't appear to have been handled very well by both previous clubs committees and as a result the refuseniks on both sides of the divide were born

Maybe Mr Mantis or Old Caley girl can confirm whether my findings were valid or not

dougal

Finally you get to the point and we all learn what the real agenda for this thread has been.

[Yngwie]

I find the poll results very interesting reading and I thinks it safe to say that there are a lot more refuseniks out there than the average ICT fan likes to admit

I think you're gonna have to explain your logic there.

Surely the most relevant stat from the poll is that over the course of a week, hundreds of people have viewed it but only 24 took part.

[TopSix]

While we appreciate your input Kingsmills we have already came to the unanimous conclusion( well apart from Alex) that Thistle would probably have been no more unfortunately had Caledonian FC gone alone

We have?

I find the poll results very interesting reading and I thinks it safe to say that there are a lot more refuseniks out there than the average ICT fan likes to admit

You do?

Anyway I've done a bit more research into the merger over the last couple days and I've unearthed some very interesting points which maybe explain why there were refuseniks and why they still exist today

I find it staggering that both teams fans who were not season ticket holders were not polled regarding a proposed merger, surely this could have been done quite easily by handing out a small questionaire to all home fans as they came through the turnstiles

Why was it allegedly suggested to both memberships at the first vote that the Scottish league preferred a merged team and that a league place was guaranteed when this was definitely not the case at all?

Why did they allegedly not accept proxi votes from members that lived outside Inverness and could not attend in person?

They also allegedly failed to to inform the memberships that had the first vote gone against merging there would have been a second vote for a solo bid therefore misguiding them into believing that they were voting on a take it or leave it scenario?

IMHO mergergate didn't appear to have been handled very well by both previous clubs committees and as a result the refuseniks on both sides of the divide were born

Maybe Mr Mantis or Old Caley girl can confirm whether my findings were valid or not

dougal

Finally you get to the point and we all learn what the real agenda for this thread has been.

Get him telt.

I was wondering where this thread had gone tonight. I was searching through General Nonsense - a fail of epic proportions on my account. IF Thistle and Caledonian were still in existence as separate clubs, both would probably still be in the HL and there would probably be even more 'fans' of the ugly sisters in Inverness today. All very speculative of course.

[caley100]

I find the poll results very interesting reading and I thinks it safe to say that there are a lot more refuseniks out there than the average ICT fan likes to admit

I think you're gonna have to explain your logic there.

Surely the most relevant stat from the poll is that over the course of a week, hundreds of people have viewed it but only 24 took part.

Exactly...... who really gives a flying f*ck.

[The Long Man]

Well, I have to break it gently to you, but you're a bit feckin late with your conspiracy theories based on hearsay and rumour. About 17 years late. The tiny number of people you have polled aren't exactly 'evidence' of anything at all. What a pointless lot of waffle.

[Charles Bannerman]

Why did they allegedly not accept proxi votes from members that lived outside Inverness and could not attend in person?

They also allegedly failed to to inform the memberships that had the first vote gone against merging there would have been a second vote for a solo bid therefore misguiding them into believing that they were voting on a take it or leave it scenario?

Now that sounds really like a quite well informed former Caley fan of 93 who was seriously disgruntled at the time and still has a festering axe to grind. You may not be Buenos in person but you still hurt, initially at what happened and possibly even more so nowadays at the stunning success of the eventual result of the whole process.

A phonebox full of refuseniks against what has happened over the last 17 years is a mere pimple on the backside of the recent stunning success of football in Inverness.

As the Lord High Executioner almost said in The Mikado: "There will none of you be missed!"

Edited March 19, 2011 by Charles Bannerman

[+Fraz]

Oh for the love of God perhaps a better poll would have been - 'How many people still (or ever did) care how may refusniks there are?' (aside from Dougal)

If people don't want to support ICT in one way or another very little is going to change their minds, regardless if it is due to allegiances to clubs that no longer exist or perhaps they find TCS a bit cold, maybe it's due to the crap pies or indeed that Tokley scares them. Whatever the reason and however many there are, why give a :******: they have made their choice and I for one see that as the end of it.

[dougal]

I find the poll results very interesting reading and I thinks it safe to say that there are a lot more refuseniks out there than the average ICT fan likes to admit

I think you're gonna have to explain your logic there.

Surely the most relevant stat from the poll is that over the course of a week, hundreds of people have viewed it but only 24 took part.

Yngwie it hardly takes a brain surgeon to work it out but here goes just for you Sir

11/24 which is less than 50% voted for very few refuseniks(0-50) while 13/24 more than 50% voted for considerable numbers

Are you trying to tell me the votes have somehow been rigged??

I'm afraid the fact that only 24 have voted leads me to think that the number of original Caley or Thistle fans on this forum are neglible and backs up my claims about the numbers of refuseniks

For the record there are four more members on this site that think there are more refuseniks than I do so try and work that out if you can

Finally I would just like to point out yet again for Tearlach Bannerman I've never set foot in either Telford St or Kingsmills but don't let that stop you trying to stereotype me

dougal

Edited March 19, 2011 by dougal