TB and Attendances - Summer Football?

[Bridge_Ender]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/21471225

 

I think he makes a fair point and is probably justifiably feeling frustrated that attendances are not going up in argurably one of our best seasons ever.

 

However...

 

Personally, like the league system, I don't think the odd tweak in pricing or scheduling would make much difference. What would, IMO, is the introduction of summer football. The SPL would be pretty much the only (football) show in town over the summer months (the 2/3 weeks of World Cups  and European Championships aside), SKY would almost certainly be keen to show live UK football (think Rugby Super League for a case in point), supporters would be more encouraged to come out on a summers evening rather than a cold winters night, travelling becomes easier for fans not having to worry about treacherous journeys, being snowed in or just general discomfort of a long journey in poor weather, players would be plying their trade in good conditions rather than frozen fields and sodden pitches.

 

The traditionalists will no doubt argue against it but the truth is that Scottish football will never again be able to compete with the English or European competitons for fans - people will just watch on TV now. Surely there has to be some realistic thought given to it and to perhaps think a little bit outside the box? The international calendar issue is nonsense - the Scandinavians have been playing in the summer months for years.

 

Is summer football a no-brainer or a non starter?

[bdu98196]

TB has a point, its been discussed before on here - 2nd in the League, attractive football but folks dont turn out to support. A midweek game isnt a good example though, but we really deserve more.

 

However looking at the comments on BBC sport citing the stadium is too far from town, its cold, its wet, its windy - this sort of mindset you will never change. Generations would rather glory hunt being OF fans than support the local guys - this needs to change with the next generation!!!

 

This year I'm gutted to be living away from the area and missng so many games, but I make a concerted effort to attend home or away whenever I can - if anything making more effort than ever before because our play has been so entertaining.

Edited February 15, 2013 by bdu98196

[Renegade]

I think some people are sick with seeing the same team's over and over again.  For example, I've seen Kilmarnock play more times than I can think of.  There needs to be more teams in the league.

[gordieict]

I remember a thread about this a season ago and I posted that it was down to the negative football being played, Caley D stated that it has been proved that the style of football has very little effect on the attendances, at the time I thought this was crazy. Roll on a season and I have to say that I got that badly wrong and CaleyD was right. We are sitting in 2nd place in the league and playing excellent football and if anything crowds have gone down. What is the answer I wish I knew, perhaps summer football but maybe we just have to accept that this is our level of crowd and work on the younger generation (which I am sure the club is already doing) . 

 

I do feel sorry for the Butcher and the team it must be terrible to know you are doing everything you can yet the town/city is not getting behind you.

Edited February 15, 2013 by gordieict

[+Fraz]

Been reading those comments and I think the checklist is complete-

Merger (now I support Man U/Man City/Chelsea/Sevco/Celtic/RC etc) - check

Weather's crap - check

Location of stadium is crap - check

Scottish football is rubbish - check

Sevco / Celtic gloryhunters everywhere - check

RC are such a fantastic club so everyone wants to go there now as they have a sand pit for the kids, free foot massage from Roy etc, (this is a relativly new one though) - check

Far too expensive - check

 

Have I missed anything?

[Caleyjag157]

Lower the prices, I personally cannot afford to go to every home game but my partner and son go to as many as we can. Do more offers - 1 child free for every paying adult, free child season tickets reduce adult prices. Less evening kick offs.

[gordieict]

Lower the prices, I personally cannot afford to go to every home game but my partner and son go to as many as we can. Do more offers - 1 child free for every paying adult, free child season tickets reduce adult prices. Less evening kick offs.

 

 

Problem with lowering prices is how many more would actually go, it could end up just reducing overall income.

[lukemackay]

i blame the merger!

 

lukemackay

[+Fraz]

OK, I take people's point about it being relatively expensive to to pay at the gate if you were taking a couple of kids.

 

However my fag packet sums tell me that for the North stand an adult (£300) & 2 kids (U12 x 2= £160) if they were to get season tickets it would work out at about £24 (to pay at the gate it would be £41) for all three to attend each game based on 19 games. For an adult and 2 over 16s it's £32, pay at the gate £53! That's some difference. You could save over £300 at least. I honestly don't think that the ST prices are that terrible when you work it out.

 

There may be even further family section deals. Of course there's extras like food, programme but that's no different than if you went to the cinema / rollerbowl etc or you could just be stingy.

[+Tree]

The issue is clearly complex and in many ways it is to the credit of the old firm fans (did I just say that) that they continue to support their teams (including vociferously) in large numbers albeit even they have reduced crowds.

 

Clearly there is something or some factors which are impacting on the crowds.

 

I can't help feel that the SPL lacks a general entertainment factor which goes beyond the standard of the football being played. Nor is it simply a financial issue though clearly this will have had some impact.

 

If we take the game on Wednesday. There is poor weather, Man U vs Real on TV, etc before the game even starts.

 

Prior to the game there is little to provide any entertainment or interaction with the crowd. Jud gives the teams just prior to the game and tells someone to turn off there lights (not a criticism of Jud who is just filling in) albeit with the sound level somewhat out of kilter. Half time - nothing. End of game - everyone frustrated at another few points thrown away.

 

I'll be honest and say walking away from the ground I was left wondering why I had bothered to attend and whether TV football would have been more enjoyable/entertaining.

 

We have had a number of people over the summer give any number of reasons for not renewing season tickets this year. Most of the reasons I would suggest are spurious and in effect they were saying that they could not be bothered and found a reason not to come back this season.

 

Solving the above is even more complex than the reasons for the issues. The core aspect is to find something however that makes people want to come, irrespective of quality of football, league position and other factors including cost. This is what I believe is lacking and we are not alone in suffering from this.

 

What will definitely not help is Terry trying reverse psychology. Nor will it help to pick battles with fans.

[old caley girl]

Actually went to check our website today. Great family deal imo. Half st adult £110 child £15. Not sure if many know about this.

[+Fraz]

Actually went to check our website today. Great family deal imo. Half st adult £110 child £15. Not sure if many know about this.

 

That's a great deal, I think the problem we have perhaps is a lack of promotion of the deals rather lack of actual deals. People probably just assume it's expensive or see the PAG prices and think nah too dear.

[davie]

I read TB's comments with a real feeling of inevitability. As a manager who lives and breathes the club and believes passionately in his team, it must be frustrating. As fans on the other hand, we're lucky in some ways in that we have a choice as to whether we get into all that - or even if we turn up at all. The fans, though are the lifeblood of the club and is 2500 or so really what we want to see when we're second top of the league? Of course not. The big issue seems to be prices, and ideas for lowering them. How can the club bring down ticket prices permanently in mid season - all that would result would be a storm of protest from season ticket holders who would (with some measure of justification) feel they were bankrolling the scheme. the club has tried bring a friend schemes and two matches for the price of one already this year and attendances haven't improved. The club regularly distributes tickets to schools etc, but again attendances have stagnated. The club builds bridges through community development, the all together now capaign etc. and a lot of that is designed to get more through the gates. I am as mumped as anyone about the prices, but we are'nt paying more - the £20 nominal admission price often quoted was worth £9.48 in 1990, and about a tenner is  roughly what I was paying to get in back then (old age!) This year especially, I think we feel poorer because our banks bu**ered up the finacial system and now we're paying for that too.

People moan as well about the product. We are second top in a league that has less than ten points seperating us and second bottom and if that's not compeditive I don't know what is. We didn't want "hoof ball" that we'd complained about for ages - well we certainly don't have that now. You can moan about the manager, the tactics, his loan signings etc. but evidence suggests that he's doing something right. You can moan about the board as well, but their budget is built on an income that has been pre-identified. Less income = less club. Literally.

As well as the above, there's a feeling around that the club just can't please the punters at all, no matter what. Nick Ross talked of the disappointment of being booed off on wednesday - we're second in the league for goodness sake. There have also been boos directed at Phil Roberts and frank verbal abuse at the manager and it detracts from what we try to promote as a family based, close knit club. Some of the stuff on CTO has been pretty negative in tone as well.Fans really do have some responsibilities as well as rights to voice their opinions in public (and on national radio on wednesday) Caley Jags Together have an AGM on 28th of this month and if you want to tell them what is wrong with the club and get it through to them, come along and make your point. Then there can be real meaningful debate and we don't have to air our dirty linen in public as we are right now. Shouting abuse and booing from the stand ain't going to do that.

It's up to people, at the end of the day, whether they sit in and watch barca on sky sports instead of going to the game on the relatively rare occasion when these things clash. But in 20 years time, when your apathy has killed everything below la liga, the premiership and Ligue 1, who will you moan to?

[CaleyD]

Gordie pointed out a prior discussion where we talked about the effect (or not) that quality of football has on attendances....and I think price also falls into that category.

 

I'm not saying that lower prices would not attract more people, but there's not enough (if any) room in the budgets for clubs to be reducing prices to a level where it would have an appreciable effect on attendances.  Although, IMO, there's a lot could be done to still make football more affordable to families.

 

What the club need to do is remove the mental block between price and attendance....and I do think some of it is down to the thought of handing over a £20 note (or more) at the turnstile.  Asking people for a lump sum also creates that mental "how much!!" situation.  How would people feel about an interest free Direct Debit system?  Not finance...but the club operating the scheme directly and allowing people to pay for their seasons football over 10 or 12 months?

 

I only ask, because this seems to have been very successful at other clubs....I think it's Norwich City where over 60% of fans pay this way, and who have doubled home support in the last 10 years or so (they actually have a waiting list for season tickets there these days).

 

What is even more important though is fan engagement....but people need to realise that is a two way process, so if they want the club to engage with the fans, then the fans have to be willing to engage with the club.  Only then can both sides begin to understand each others issues and come together to find solutions to them.

[Caleyjag157]

The direct debit system paying over 10-12 months would be a great idea and would be

a more affordable way of buying a season ticket.

Personally I had never been to a Caley game until my son came home with a free ticket from school now we are hooked and although we can't go to every game we go as often as we can.

[Broonerz]

Low attendances isn't just an ICT issue, empty seats galore at Celtic Park, Pittodrie, Easter Road etc etc. the 'new' 12-12-18 set up wont help this either.

The Direct Debit idea is surely worth a try, even if it only attracts a few, it's a few who aren't going at present.

The SPL, and individual clubs, need to be creative and try to attract people back into our grounds. Any ideas should be looked at and given due consideration, as its bleak times ahead if numbers continue on their current downward spiral.

[+DoofersDad]

I wonder when there was a lower home crowd for a team sitting in 2nd place in the top flight of Scottish football?  Probably about 1872.  It's disappointing, but being a miserable weekday night with Real Madrid  v Man U on the box it is perhaps not too surprising.

 

We should have a bit of perspective here.  Maybe Terry is regretting not going to Barnsley but they recently had a midweek match against Millwall and got a crowd of around 7800.  That maybe sounds a lot to us but the Metropolitan District of Barnsley has a population about 3 times the size of Inverness and surrounding area.  So relative to our population the crowds aren't particularly poor.  We may compare ourselves to County but we should hold our hands up and recognise that the level of support they get relative to their catchment area is superb.

 

We have a lot going against us.  The ground is unattractive to spectators and poorly sited - but there's nothing we can do about that at the moment.  And people have unrealistic expectations.  They see the best of the English Premier league and European competitions every week and then come to the TCS and expect the same.  Unfortunately fans are not going to get football consistently at that quality although what they do get is often pretty good.  The match day experience is not great but the one thing which would improve it most is a better atmosphere, but that in turn requires more people.  It's a vicious circle.

 

We have to make the best of what we have and that means plugging away at all the publicity and improving the product on offer.  I also like the Direct debit idea.  You can't force people to come but you can encourage them and then the more enjoyable the match day experience the more likely they will be to return.I've said it before and I'll say it again.  If they haven't already done it, I think the club would do well to invest in some properly conducted market research to identify why folk either don't go to matches or go infrequently.  Find out what would make them come more regularly and then act on the findings.

 

For me the bottom line is that the fan base is never going to be huge and unless we bring some mega rich investor on board we are never going to have the money to buy and keep the players that will bring top quality football to Inverness.  We are punching above our weight at the moment (oops, sorry Terry!) so perhaps those who do go regularly should just stop moaning about those who don't and enjoy our elevated position whilst we are doing so well.

 

 

 

 

[givmeaccccc]

Direct debit sounds good to me. £700 for 2 season tickets is a tough one each June/July.

[old caley girl]

The club used to do an interest free payment scheme in the past so may be worth investigating. They also used to sell packages of tickets at this stage of the season ie 4 game packs. Folk would maybe find this more affordable than payg at the moment and its targeting folk that maybe come when they can afford it.

[davie]

I wonder when there was a lower home crowd for a team sitting in 2nd place in the top flight of Scottish football?  Probably about 1872.  It's disappointing, but being a miserable weekday night with Real Madrid  v Man U on the box it is perhaps not too surprising.

 

We should have a bit of perspective here.  Maybe Terry is regretting not going to Barnsley but they recently had a midweek match against Millwall and got a crowd of around 7800.  That maybe sounds a lot to us but the Metropolitan District of Barnsley has a population about 3 times the size of Inverness and surrounding area.  So relative to our population the crowds aren't particularly poor.  We may compare ourselves to County but we should hold our hands up and recognise that the level of support they get relative to their catchment area is superb.

 

We have a lot going against us.  The ground is unattractive to spectators and poorly sited - but there's nothing we can do about that at the moment.  And people have unrealistic expectations.  They see the best of the English Premier league and European competitions every week and then come to the TCS and expect the same.  Unfortunately fans are not going to get football consistently at that quality although what they do get is often pretty good.  The match day experience is not great but the one thing which would improve it most is a better atmosphere, but that in turn requires more people.  It's a vicious circle.

 

We have to make the best of what we have and that means plugging away at all the publicity and improving the product on offer.  I also like the Direct debit idea.  You can't force people to come but you can encourage them and then the more enjoyable the match day experience the more likely they will be to return.I've said it before and I'll say it again.  If they haven't already done it, I think the club would do well to invest in some properly conducted market research to identify why folk either don't go to matches or go infrequently.  Find out what would make them come more regularly and then act on the findings.

 

For me the bottom line is that the fan base is never going to be huge and unless we bring some mega rich investor on board we are never going to have the money to buy and keep the players that will bring top quality football to Inverness.  We are punching above our weight at the moment (oops, sorry Terry!) so perhaps those who do go regularly should just stop moaning about those who don't and enjoy our elevated position whilst we are doing so well.

This is probably one of the most negative posts I have read on here. Let's get this right - The weather's rubbish. Barnsley get bigger crowds than us. County are "suberb" at attracting crowds. we need to improve the product from being second in the league. We are never going to have a bigger fanbase. We make sarcastic remarks about "punching" that never happened, but we ought to stop moaning.

Precisely how? It's a serious question.

[starchief]

I thought Kenny Shiels had some good things to say

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/kilmarnock-boss-kenny-shiels-calls-1712114

 

"What would any other sport in Scotland not give for the amount of people who go to watch football?

"Two and a half-thousand on a Wednesday night with Champions League on the television - that's a very good crowd. Did you see the snow? You wouldn't believe it.

"You have to look at the societal changes that have gone on. In days gone by a cup of tea was a novelty. Now we are in the computer age. That is why the crowds have gone down.

"We are doing great in Scotland. What's the crowds in Finland? There's five million population there. Go look up their crowds. They are not great."

[Bluesman]

Do you think if Celtic had won on Tuesday night, the Scottish media would have been so interested to give air time/print to our 'poor attendances'....?

 

Fraz's list is just about bang on - missed out wall to wall TV though - been killing the game for years. 

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

What will definitely not help is Terry trying reverse psychology. Nor will it help to pick battles with fans. I thought Kenny Shiels had some good things to say.

 

Just ponder a moment on those two statements.

[+DoofersDad]

lots of pretty objective things

This is probably one of the most negative posts I have read on here. Let's get this right - The weather's rubbish. Barnsley get bigger crowds than us. County are "superb" at attracting crowds. we need to improve the product from being second in the league. We are never going to have a bigger fan base. We make sarcastic remarks about "punching" that never happened, but we ought to stop moaning.

Precisely how? It's a serious question.

This is probably one of the most bizarre posts I've read on here for a while.

 

The weather was rubbish on Wednesday and was a reason the crowd was so low.  It's a positive thing to say to those moaning about how low the crowd was because it gives a reason which has nothing to do with the quality of football on offer.

 

Barnsley do get bigger crowds than us but I quoted it in the context of the relative populations - again to put a positive spin on our gate on Wednesday.  Their crowd and our crowd were similar as a proportion of the catchment areas.

 

I did not say that County are superb at attracting crowds.  I said that "the level of support they get relative to their catchment area is superb".  That is a different thing and cannot be taken to imply that our club are not as good at attracting crowds.  It simply means that for whatever reason, County get good crowds. That is a fact it would be churlish to deny.  Recognising that their level of support is particularly good relative to their population means that by comparison, our is not as poor as some would make out - another positive comment from me.

 

I did not say "we need to improve the product from being second in the league".  I said that we should continue to plug away at improving the product on offer.  That recognises that the club is continually trying to do just that - another positive thing to say.  If you are criticising me for saying that we should continue to try to improve the product on offer it implies you think it would be more positive to make the product worse.

 

I did not say "we are never going to have a bigger fan base".  I said "the fan base is never going to be huge" which is clearly something very very different.  In that context, I then went on to comment how well we are doing which again strikes me as a positive thing to say.

 

As for "We make sarcastic remarks about "punching" that never happened"- well, excuse me for having a sense of humour.  It was not a sarcastic comment, it was a little joke alluding to the scurrilous allegations made against Terry.  How anyone could take offence at that is beyond me.  Personally I think that having a sense of humour and having some light hearted banter on this forum is a positive thing. 

 

Your final point draws attention to the fact that I'm suggesting people should stop moaning.  Personally I would have thought that suggesting people stop moaning was a positive thing to say.

 

You conclude by asking what you say is a serious question when you ask "precisely how?" we ought to stop moaning.  To be honest, I'm not really sure what this is supposed to mean.  How do you stop moaning?  Well - don't moan!  I don't know what else to say.

 

And whilst claiming my post was so dreadfully negative, you conveniently ignore what I would have thought was a very positive suggestion that the club invests in some serious market research to identify why folk don't attend and what would encourage them to come.

 

Finally, you seemed to have missed the ending of my post in which my final few depressingly negative words are "enjoy our elevated position whilst we are doing so well."  Again I would have thought that reference to the team doing so well was a positive thing to say.

 

I have to say that I really can't remember when I have seen a post so misquoted and so misinterpreted.  No doubt there have been many much more positive posts than mine but I would have thought it was an objective post with a positive spin.  I cannot see how it could be construed as negative and to claim that it is "probably one of the most negative posts I have read on here" is complete and utter nonsense.

 

I have no issue with people disagreeing with me and pointing out I am talking rubbish when I am talking rubbish (and I do from time to time!) but it really is not helpful to constructive discussion on this forum when posters are serially misquoted and misinterpreted in this way.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Dont worry Dofers Dad - Caley D and davie are now clearly part of the established TCS set up and have to try and denigrate any form of criticism - without looking at what has been said. Look forward to you joining me in the corner with the white conical hat with a big D on it.  They appear to be taking on the TB stance of trying to stamp out any form of very considered and reasoned criticism.

 

"I have to say that I really can't remember when I have seen a post so misquoted and so misinterpreted. No doubt there have been many much more positive posts than mine but I would have thought it was an objective post with a positive spin." - Join the feckin club as it happens to me on a regular basis.

 

I have no issue with people disagreeing with me and pointing out I am talking rubbish when I am talking rubbish (and I do from time to time!) but it really is not helpful to constructive discussion on this forum when posters are serially misquoted and misinterpreted in this way.

 

Perhaps they are trying to decimate the population of this forum in the same manner as TB and the TCS