Is the G-word racist?

[Locutus]

A Dunfermline fan reporting Ross County fans for slagging Inverness fans....quality :D

[Georgeios]

It was as clear as glass on BBC Alba too, along with all 22 players on the fields potty mouthed rants too, Forans was the best, he owes my house ?4.50 for the swear box!! Potty mouth!

[RiG]

Can't say I am overly bothered by them chanting it. I thought it was funny to be honest but I wonder if those who felt moved to complain about the ICT fans will do so about the County supporters.

Actually, I bet this whole thing was started by a County fan pretending to be an Inverness follower.

[old caley girl]

Dont think we should go down the tit for tat route and it sort of blows our banter arguement out of the water. Hopefully this will go away for a while now - well at least until Nov 7th anyhow.

[Harry Chibber]

I thought some of you might like to read the email conversation with Mike Smith:

From: Mike Smith

Sent: 05 October 2009 10:32:23

To: Chibbinho

Cc: safety@ictfc.co.uk; john@acecitysecurity.co.uk; blair.marquis@northern.pnn.police.uk

Chibalata

Sorry I didn?t get a chance to respond to your email when it came in on Saturday. I have to say I do think you are being unfair to our fans in the family sections ? whilst season tickets sold in all three areas of our stands (Main/North/Family) were greater this year than last, the family section showed their commitment with the greatest % increase and this excludes the under 8s who as you know come in for free.

On the issue football banter of course we, the stewards & the police all understand it and its traditions ? unfortunately as Sargent Archie Henderson explained at the meeting on Friday night it is not us but the world that has changed. Like it or not chanting ?effing gypsy *******? will be deemed as racist by the police particularly given the increased emphasis required of them on this area over the last couple of years.

Don Johnstone argued strongly that context (football banter) should be taken into account but as Archie said the court will merely deem what is said as either racist or not.

On that issue generally I trust you will have seen the note I asked Don to put on the website yesterday (attached) ? both we and the police wanted to avoid fans getting into trouble and thus the debate. I am pleased to say that there wasn?t a problem.

I think having Don as the PA man is an expression of the club wanting increase the atmosphere!

Once again thanks for putting forward your thoughts ? I have no problem with posting all this correspondence on the fans website.

Regards

Mike

From: Chib-&-dale

Sent: 03 October 2009 15:14

Subject: RE: Stewarding

Mike

Thank you for taking the time to reply to my email. I can appreciate that you are in a difficult situation balancing both sides of the argument, however, I feel the club have lost perspective. This is a football club after all, the real fans have been in the North Stand since our days in the lower leagues and will continue to support the team if we don't manage to make our way back to the SPL, can you guarantee the same support from the fans in the family section? Perfect example was the exodus 5 minutes before the end of Falkirk match last season where the family sections were almost empty and the 'fans' were more concerned about avoiding traffic when 1 goal would have guaranteed safety!

On the other hand the younger fans in section G travel regularly to away fixtures, sing their hearts out almost every weekend and then return home to be treated like second class citizens. I am not, by any means, suggesting these guys are saints. I've disagreed with them regularly over various issues; the booing of Djebi-Zadi, the lack of support Barrowman's received (when he seems to need it), I even strongly disagreed with the "shoe's off for Brewster out" but they are the most dedicated element of our support and it feels they are being punished for trying to create an atmosphere. In fact, with the latest incident of "abusive racist chanting" is a perfect example of the lack of perspective being shown by the stewards and the club. Ross County fans have been referred to as Gypsies (and the majority would accept it as banter) since long before I was born and if this is really being described as "abusive racist chanting" I'd like to know why the club haven't acted on it for the previous decade it's been chanted from the stands/terracing? Christ, I'd be incarcerated.

Scott's idea is a good one and hopefully something that can be looked at in future seasons but I think you need to be careful of treating vocal fans as rebels. Should you not be encouraging the rest of our support to join in, rather than segregating a section of them?

Once again, I appreciate that you have taken the time to reply to my long-winded email and as long as you don't mind I would like to post your email on the forum so the fans can see your point of view?

I look forward to hearing from you

Kind regards

Chib-Chib-Cha-roo

-----Original Message-----

From: Mike Smith

Sent: 02 October 2009 15:26

To: Chibtastic

Subject: FW: Stewarding

Chibbomatic

Thanks for taking the time to send such a detailed email. Thanks also for your continued support for the club at away games and the commitment shown by travelling back to Inverness for a number of home games each season.

Whilst I very much appreciate your comments, there does seem to be two dramatically opposite views. We continually get letters of complaints about what happens in Section G from adjacent season ticket holders who are concerned with abusive chanting/ foul language and also over-crowding in that area.

On the other hand, we also get emails supporting the youngsters and feel that they provide much needed vocal support for the team.

I suppose in some ways we are a victim of the success of the family section as that now extends to sections H - L and sections A & B of the North Stand. Maybe we should take up Scott Mackenzie's Toronto team's "pen" idea for the more animated crowd element!

As you appreciate, this causes difficulties for the stewards involved as we try to balance these vastly conflicting views.

We do try to operate a soft approach with all fans and particularly the home fans who have a good reputation. Our stewarding policy is for minimal intervention and normally any action taken by the stewards is in response to complaints received.

This was the case at the last game v Partick Thistle when checking of tickets in section G was carried out following complaints of over crowding having been received from fans at the previous game. We also took the opportunity to try to warn fans of the dangers of perceived abusive racist chanting at the last County game (again complaints received) and the risk of police action in those circumstances.

Obviously I will make your comments known to the police and the stewarding company which this year changed from G4S to Ace.

Regards

Mike Smith

General Manager

-----Original Message-----

From: Mr Chibber

Sent: 30 September 2009 11:46

Subject: Stewarding

Dear Mike Smith

I should start by explaining that I have been a regular visitor to the stadium since we relocated to the longman, before then I would be seen at Telford Street the majority of weekends. I appreciate the success the club has had in a very short period of time and continue to have a positive outlook unlike some of our newest and spoilt supporters. I'd like to send all my best to Terry, Maurice and the lads, hopefully we can turn our home form around and settle a score against County this weekend.

I'd like to point out at this time I have lived in Glasgow for the last 5 years and attend away games more frequently, however, I still make the long journey back and forth at least 10 games a season. Please believe me when I say I have sacrificed a lot due to my love of the club and my desire to see us compete at the highest level in Scottish football. I believe that Inverness (the Highlands) deserves the representation of a provincial club and I have every faith we will be back there very soon. I am sure the topic I am about to bring up is something you deal with regularly as I often see posts about this on the caley thistle forum and I'm aware I'm not the only person with this opinion.

Stewarding. I can honestly say after traveling to almost every football ground in the country that I have never been so ill-treated as I have been, not once, but every time I come home to see my team play football in my home town! I have tried to consider it from different points of view and have even seen myself making excuses for them to my friends "they are only doing their job", "they have to deal with a crowd, would you do it?", "it is a health and safety requirement" etc. but after years of coming to TCS I have run out of excuses. We have no casual element; I would be surprised if there has ever been a fight outside or near the stadium that's resulted from the football. Lets be honest, the North Stand holds 1,500 - 2000 fans (?) we are never going to have a Hillsborough disaster; if someone fell from the top of the stand they would have a very sore bottom and that is it. I really don't know what is expected of us as fans anymore? I understand there are safety requirements for a football ground these days and a lot of new

rules and regulations that the club needs to adhere to but how can anyone honestly expect us to generate support for the 11 players on the park when the majority of fans are in paralysis because of the fear of a talking too from one of the stewards. Every game, without fail, there will be some sort of intervention from the stewards and almost every time I've seen has been completely unnecessary. I am sick fed up of paying money to be treated like a second class citizen, prisoner, cattle etc. I don't know what training these stewards receive that qualifies them in crowd control but I would strongly recommend a lesson to improve their social skills and perspective, because the stadium is no longer a welcoming and friendly place to visit. I think the most important thing for you to consider here is that these stewards are putting people off coming back to the stadium and losing the club money!!

It seems to be the younger fans in section G that are being targeted by the stewards and more often than not, nothing is resolved but the animosity remains for the next game. The problem clearly exists because the family sections in the north stand are located in sections beside them. I appreciate that a singing section was created to hold these supporters but I don't think anyone wants to be dissasociated as a minority, especially when you would hope that the majority of fans should be singing in a football stadium and not the other way round. The quieter sections are at the opposite side of the stand so would recommend these as the family sections in future.

I pay an absolute fortune every season, I am more dedicated than most and I haven't enjoyed a visit to the longman in a long long time. It's obvious that recent home results aren't helping the situation but I am of the belief that if we can offer the vocal encouragement like most home stadiums offer and make the players feel like they are at home the results will come. At the moment I am struggling to justify traveling a 300 mile round trip so my club benefits from support rather than putting my money in the pockets of other clubs.

I look forward to your reply

Yours sincerely

Harry Chibber

[Georgeios]

:P B) :clapping03:

[old caley girl]

good points but I dont think its the fault of the family section. We dont know that the complaints came from there and no I dont sit there either. The funny thing is that I bet in a few years time the same kids in the family section will be the singers in section G getting criticised by others. As I have already posted I think the club have handled this badly but we just have to get on with it. I personally enjoy the banter in the north stand from section e and section G create a good atmosphere to support the team.Most of this is pc nonsence but thats the way it is these days.

[Scotty]

I would just like to point out that Toronto FC fans are not in a "pen". There are no barriers/fences/nets etc holding us in. The whole of the South end of the stadium a further two sections on the east and west stands and two sections at the north end of the ground are deemed supporters sections where rules are relaxed and stewarding is "tolerant" of boisterous behaviour (but not rule breaking). It is also not "my idea" but the policy of Toronto FC and their owners Maple Leafs Sport and Entertainment who regularly meet with and discuss these sorts of things with representatives of fan groups.

I dont think ICT could do what Toronto do as TFC do have a 20,000 seat stadium so it is easier to designate large swathes of it as supporters sections, but perhaps looking into potential solutions in the areas of cmmunication and "customer service" might be the answer.

The supporters sections at TFC have had their issues since the club was formed but they have developed and improved over the last 3 years and this season we have had the same stewards in the same sections for virtually every game. They start to recognise you and say hello and have a bit of craic with you and that makes it easy to respect them when they ask (nicely) for you to go back into the row from the aisles or whatever. I also believe they are specifically chosen for the supporters section because they are capable - I have seen the odd steward with a jobsworth or power trip personality, but those ones were quickly weeded out and either sacked or moved to other sections. Being in the same section all the time also means they know who are the "boisterous" fans who are just enjoying themselves and which ones are out to get ratfaced or cause a nuisance ......

I have been a bit critical of the club over the "gypsy" ruling and I still think it is ridiculous (in this context) but I do accept that the club are between a rock and a hard place with this one. Regardless of who complained about it and what was said, or the fact it has been banter for years, as soon as it was brought up as a complaint they have a duty to investigate and make a ruling. It seems they were not able to make that ruling on their own so asked for advice from the police who told them it was likely to be classed as racist. Thats it, end of story, nothing you, me or the club can really do about it. Where it could have been better handled (again) is in the communication .... as I have said a good few times before about other subjects, its not the message thats the problem, its the delivery.

[highlandexile]

Reading the communication between mike smith and harry chibber it seems to be one of the problems is the close proximity of the family agrea to section G. For lots of us in the family area that is a bonus but for others, especially those with younger children its a major downside.

When we moved back to the stadium, the family section was in the main stand, and that worked well for some families. Just maybe it migt be an idea for the club to make an area in the main stand available again for a family section.

The problem as I see it is the main stand is just too expensive for most families so families who don't like the banter in the north stand are forced to be there becuase of financial constraints.

This solution should keep everyone happy and maybe reduce the number of complaints concerning bad language etc.

[caleykid1994]

Anyone hear the County fans chanting "I'd rather be a Gypo than a tink?" during the game?

I didnt? Only because i couldnt hear them all game, its the quietest away support for a couple of seasons there that day

[DornochCaley]

Cheers for that Harry.

Its interesting to see Mike Smiths point of view, and maybe - just maybe - i have been a bit harsh with some of my critisism of the man. Though i do agree with Harry that the Family section should be in the North stand and made cheaper OR just move it to the other end of the North stand!

Section G has been fan made as a singing section. I belive if the club officially make that the singing section, and post on the website and such that it is the singing section, strong language might be shouted, ex. then maybe families might get season tickets away from G. Strong Language is appart of football and has been in football longer than EVERY person that goes to the football now-a-days, so complaining about it is stupidity. Dont come to football if you dont want foul language! BUT, people will always complain, especially Highlanders, so yes, something needs to be done soon!

[mainstander]

Dont come to football if you dont want foul language!

What a heap of arrogant cr@p! Why should the decent majoraty be chased away from football by a bunch of foulmouthed loudmouthed kids? The current law exists because that decent majoraty doesnt want and wont accept this kind of nonsence - and football matches are no exeption. How many decent fans do people like this actualy drive away so how much money do you cost the club.

If you are a member of the mindless minoraty which wants to behave like this then take a long hike into the Cairngorms where nobody can here you and shout all you like. Come back to the Caledonian stadium when you have growne up.

[DornochCaley]

Dont come to football if you dont want foul language!

What a heap of arrogant cr@p! Why should the decent majoraty be chased away from football by a bunch of foulmouthed loudmouthed kids? The current law exists because that decent majoraty doesnt want and wont accept this kind of nonsence - and football matches are no exeption. How many decent fans do people like this actualy drive away so how much money do you cost the club.

If you are a member of the mindless minoraty which wants to behave like this then take a long hike into the Cairngorms where nobody can here you and shout all you like. Come back to the Caledonian stadium when you have growne up.

Its funny you say that, as go to anyother ground in Scotland, and its the MEN not kids as you say, that are foul mouthed. Why is it you have plenty to say on the forum but you are never there helping us back the team on the day. Just sit on your mainstand arse! Fecking joke! This is no personal attack, this is too all those who think the same as your man...COME BACK TO EARTH!

[HumbersideDude]

Dont come to football if you dont want foul language!

What a heap of arrogant cr@p! Why should the decent majoraty be chased away from football by a bunch of foulmouthed loudmouthed kids? The current law exists because that decent majoraty doesnt want and wont accept this kind of nonsence - and football matches are no exeption. How many decent fans do people like this actualy drive away so how much money do you cost the club.

If you are a member of the mindless minoraty which wants to behave like this then take a long hike into the Cairngorms where nobody can here you and shout all you like. Come back to the Caledonian stadium when you have growne up.

Can you tell everyone something?

Which team did you support before ICT?

Did that team have supporters who liked to shout?

Did that team have fans that liked to sing?

Did that team have chants against their rivals?

Did that teams fans have some industrial language?

Were crowds at games bigger back then?

I assume that if you did follow a team pre 1994 you would have had all of the above at what ever team you followed.

What now, gives you the right to tell people not to support their team the same way teams have been followed for over 100 years. Obviously proper racist and sectarian songs etc are unacceptable ,You say the decent majority people are being chased away from the TCS due to the attempt at creating an atmosphere, well if thats the case I hope their seats are taken by real football people who will sing shout chant, and the decent majority you talk about go to the library on a Saturday afternoon for a bit of quiet!

I see myself as a part of the decent majority in society, I do not swear in front off the kids, I do not smoke, I rarely drink, I have a clean record with the courts, I think I am bringing up my kids well (so far), but, when I go to the fitba that is my chance to let rip and if that makes me a bad man, well, hey-ho, do I look bothered.

Oh and I aint no kid, 45 if you don't mind.

[Renegade]

Cheers for that Harry.

Its interesting to see Mike Smiths point of view, and maybe - just maybe - i have been a bit harsh with some of my critisism of the man. Though i do agree with Harry that the Family section should be in the North stand and made cheaper OR just move it to the other end of the North stand!

Section G has been fan made as a singing section. I belive if the club officially make that the singing section, and post on the website and such that it is the singing section, strong language might be shouted, ex. then maybe families might get season tickets away from G. Strong Language is appart of football and has been in football longer than EVERY person that goes to the football now-a-days, so complaining about it is stupidity. Dont come to football if you dont want foul language! BUT, people will always complain, especially Highlanders, so yes, something needs to be done soon!

I was gonna put that point on myself. The Family Section is an official thing put there by ICT, the whole Section G singing area is an unofficial fan/casuals/ultras/singers area. If there is futher "problems" with it being so close to the official family section, then you could always move it further along, and change your season ticket seats.

[DornochCaley]

Cheers for that Harry.

Its interesting to see Mike Smiths point of view, and maybe - just maybe - i have been a bit harsh with some of my critisism of the man. Though i do agree with Harry that the Family section should be in the North stand and made cheaper OR just move it to the other end of the North stand!

Section G has been fan made as a singing section. I belive if the club officially make that the singing section, and post on the website and such that it is the singing section, strong language might be shouted, ex. then maybe families might get season tickets away from G. Strong Language is appart of football and has been in football longer than EVERY person that goes to the football now-a-days, so complaining about it is stupidity. Dont come to football if you dont want foul language! BUT, people will always complain, especially Highlanders, so yes, something needs to be done soon!

I was gonna put that point on myself. The Family Section is an official thing put there by ICT, the whole Section G singing area is an unofficial fan/casuals/ultras/singers area. If there is futher "problems" with it being so close to the official family section, then you could always move it further along, and change your season ticket seats.

In theory, thats all fine and well. But most people renew season tickets in the same place. Meaning there isnt anywere we could all be together still.

[strathyjags]

iam glad i very,very rarely go to watch ict these days,was at county league game,but before that was at 1 game last season.mike smith is ruining our club and i wont be giving the club anymore of my cash,bring back morven,at least she could sort a problem out.

i go and watch strathspey thistle every week(for free)and although they get beaten most week,s you can at least see improvment on the park,and the clubs certainly going places,every club we have played at home has remarked how tidy the facilites and ground is,and the whole set up,and theres big plans in the pipeline.there website has also been improved and merchandise has arrived.

i was speaking to a guy on sat at seafield park who is/has been a ict season ticket holder for 7 season,s and he isnt gonig back,is coming to watch strthspey every week now!

Edited October 6, 2009 by blackieforce

[CaleyD]

Dont come to football if you dont want foul language!

What a heap of arrogant cr@p! Why should the decent majoraty be chased away from football by a bunch of foulmouthed loudmouthed kids? The current law exists because that decent majoraty doesnt want and wont accept this kind of nonsence - and football matches are no exeption. How many decent fans do people like this actualy drive away so how much money do you cost the club.

If you are a member of the mindless minoraty which wants to behave like this then take a long hike into the Cairngorms where nobody can here you and shout all you like. Come back to the Caledonian stadium when you have growne up.

The "decent majority"??? Don't make me laugh. Since when did two or three complaints from a crowd of hundreds or thousands become a majority?

Those complaining are very much in the minority, it's just unfortunate that we live in a society that panders to the minority for fear of accusations of discrimination. Bring back the days when the majority ruled and the minority either accepted it or fecked off and did something else.

[Johnboy]

Those complaining are very much in the minority, it's just unfortunate that we live in a society that panders to the minority for fear of accusations of discrimination. Bring back the days when the majority ruled and the minority either accepted it or fecked off and did something else.

It's all very well for an honest, law-abiding, clean-living, white, heterosexual male like you, to come out with a statement like that.

[CaleyD]

You forgot Fat and Ginger in your description, Johnboy.....and I can assure that those attributes resulted in me being subjected to just as much teasing/abuse/discrimination (whatever you want to call it) as any minority group you want to name.

[caleykid1994]

The "decent majority"??? Don't make me laugh. Since when did two or three complaints from a crowd of hundreds or thousands become a majority?

Those complaining are very much in the minority, it's just unfortunate that we live in a society that panders to the minority for fear of accusations of discrimination. Bring back the days when the majority ruled and the minority either accepted it or fecked off and did something else.

Well said

[Guest neksor]

I sit in the main stand and we certanly need the singing from the north stand to get our lot started!

But why the use of offensive words. No need for hate, just positive support for our team.

Suggestion. - Use Tink instead of Gypsy or is that word also racist?

Neksor

[davie]

I sit in the main stand and we certanly need the singing from the north stand to get our lot started!

But why the use of offensive words. No need for hate, just positive support for our team.

Suggestion. - Use Tink instead of Gypsy or is that word also racist?

Neksor,

This is what you mainstand guys just don't seem to get, and it's at the core of this. The use of "industrial" language does not imply hate. It implies that it is the common language of the common man who is (or most likely was) the mainstay of football support who went to games on a saturday and voiced their support as best they could. Like most ingrained traditions, they die hard and there will continue to be conflict with Keano's "prawn sandwiches brigade" who have adopted footy and hide behind euphamisms instead of saying things the way they are. It will be like this until one or other eventually prevails. And it won't be you lot.

[Harry Chibber]

This is what you mainstand guys just don't seem to get, and it's at the core of this. The use of "industrial" language does not imply hate. It implies that it is the common language of the common man who is (or most likely was) the mainstay of football support who went to games on a saturday and voiced their support as best they could. Like most ingrained traditions, they die hard and there will continue to be conflict with Keano's "prawn sandwiches brigade" who have adopted footy and hide behind euphamisms instead of saying things the way they are. It will be like this until one or other eventually prevails. And it won't be you lot.

Great post

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Spot on Davie and probably the fitting last post of a tiring thread.