ICT say "NO" to leagues of 10.

[Kirishima]

That's very true. And a point was made earlier that the Old Firm are the most marketable side to the SPL. That's a given. However, what the fans seem to want is a focus on playing without the negative, repetitive, avoid-relegation-at-all-costs football that would indoubtedly arrive with a 10-team league.

All we hear is TV money, TV money, but that's not what Scottish football should be relying on. Clubs should be focussing on a fresh, exciting, youthful league. What pride there is in seeing young players flourish, perform, grow and eventually progress to their and their clubs benefit. We see Bosnian players being sold for tens of millions along with Czech, French, Swedish, Danish, etc etc, and that is because they have given teams the chance to play young players and then reap the rewards. Ajax have often taken a three-year hiatus from the title challenge while playing youth in the knowledge that it will come.

There are plenty leagues in similar countries to Scotland that do have teams that dominate, but if a bigger league happened we'd see a lot more youngsters flourish. Let's stop thinking TV money, which is a small fraction of income and very variable, is the be all and end all. Let's cut the debt, cut our cloth, and push scottish youngsters to the forefront. That's what is wanted by the customer base as opposed to importing has-beens which is a debt-carrot and a hugely short-sighted and pessimistic view of potential.

[WeAreSPL]

I have been a season ticket holder at ICT (and with other clubs in a past life) for a great many years.

But, if a ten team league is adopted I will no longer attend ANY SPL matches.

I know there are many like me.

[Joe DiMaggio]

was just thinking, i know several people have said that 16 teams dont give enough games BUT......

if we re introduced the winter break then would that not be capable of filling the gap?

I think it would especially if we continue with the CIS Insurance Cup and Scottish Cup. The Portuguese League has a top division with 16 teams who compete in two cup competitions and that seems to work. Could be possible but it is quite a simplistic comparison there. Could be other issues that I'm not aware of.

Not sure we can make the comparrison with Portugal or any other country Andrew. None of those countries have a system whereby two teams get the lions share of all revenue to keep them on top. No other country has a league totally dominated by two teams.

Portugal is similar to Scotland in that it is dominated by 3 teams (to our 2), Benfica, Sporting and Porto. The league has only ever been won twice by other teams in it's history! If comparisions are to be made it should be made to countries with a similar population to us.

Edited January 7, 2011 by Joe DiMaggio

[RiG]

Not sure we can make the comparrison with Portugal or any other country Andrew. None of those countries have a system whereby two teams get the lions share of all revenue to keep them on top. No other country has a league totally dominated by two teams.

Portugal is similar to Scotland in that it is dominated by 3 teams (to our 2), Benfica, Sporting and Porto. The league has only ever been won twice by other teams in it's history! If comparisions are to be made it should be made to countries with a similar population to us.

As Joe says its the Big Three in Portugal but I don't know if they get the lions share of the TV money. It wouldn't surprise me. There is an interview with Juan Carlos Garrido in 4-4-2 where he says that (Real) Madrid and Barcelona get the majority of the Spanish TV money so it could be possible that is applicable in Portugal but I don't know for certain.

[Alex MacLeod]

Although Sport-TV hold the rights to televise league matches in Portugal which they air on Premium TV + one match a week is shown on free to air TV, the individual clubs negotiate their own contracts with Sport-TV. And yes the big clubs can negotiate better deals.

[Joe DiMaggio]

Although Sport-TV hold the rights to televise league matches in Portugal which they air on Premium TV + one match a week is shown on free to air TV, the individual clubs negotiate their own contracts with Sport-TV. And yes the big clubs can negotiate better deals.

That is what happens in Spain as well so 2 teams (in Spains case) do get the lions share of the revenue and in Portugals case 3 teams get the lions share. So it does happen in other countries and it would be much worse here if we had the same system as Rangers and Celtic would get far more than they already do.

'The dominance is felt most on TV ? and that is the crux of the issue, the precarious foundation upon which Spanish football is built. Unlike elsewhere ? and even Italy is going collective ? Spanish clubs negotiate individual television deals. "The lack of a centralised deal is the biggest problem we face," Tebas says. The reason is clear. Madrid and Barcelona will earn approximately ?120m in rights each year until 2013. Last season's third-placed side, Sevilla earn around ?20m; Valencia, currently third, make under ?30m ? less than Portsmouth. Right throughout the league, the imbalance is extraordinary. Competing is impossible.'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/mar/28/barcelona-real-madrid-spain

[bdu98196]

Fact is that thanks to the Campions League, every league in Europe is now heavily dominated by a very small minority of 2 or 3 teams, whether it be Scotland, Portugal, England, Spain or Italy. Every year the same clubs get into the CL and thus boost the cash ever widening the gap in their domestic leagues (creating further stronger displays of dominance) only exceptions are the occasional team who either has a fortunae run or a billionaire benifactor changing the status of that league.

[PullMyFinger]

If there was to be an SPL 1 & 2 both with 10 teams all with equal voting rights, then I can see a couple of seasons with the two leagues being a bearable sacrifice if it was followed by a vote by the provincial teams (assuming 19 votes wasn't the requirement) to merge the two into a league of 20.

[Kirishima]

Doncaster is now meeting with fans on what the Telegraph views as a "charm offensive."

I find it pretty transparent, that after saying it has taken 8 months of hard work to come up with a 10-team SPL idea it wasn't until 10 days before the vote, he is suddenly getting out there.

You had eight months to listen to the fans, but ever the politician, when the s*** hits the fan, shake some hands and nod your head. Can the Supporters Trust confirm when he will be in Inverness?

[CaleyD]

Also more than a little suspect that he's now suggesting that part of the SPL's "Ultimate Aims" is to have a larger top league "probably of 16 teams". Would love to know why that would be an option for the future, but is not at the moment.

[L_G]

Doncaster is now meeting with fans on what the Telegraph views as a "charm offensive."

I find it pretty transparent, that after saying it has taken 8 months of hard work to come up with a 10-team SPL idea it wasn't until 10 days before the vote, he is suddenly getting out there.

You had eight months to listen to the fans, but ever the politician, when the s*** hits the fan, shake some hands and nod your head. Can the Supporters Trust confirm when he will be in Inverness?

I can confirm the The Supporters Trust have been consulted by Neil Doncaster, we were invited to Hampden or to discuss by phone. Our Chairman, Peter Murphy, spoke to Neil Doncaster on Thursday afternoon and his thoughts can be found in the local press as well as the official ICT site and the Supporters Trust website at Supporters Trust Website where you will also find information on our upcoming AGM.

You will probably have heard of Supporters Direct as they carried out a survey of fans opinions and presented them to the SPL. Supporters Direct are the governing body for all Supporters Trusts around the Country and have earned the respect of the governing bodies as the voice of the fans via the individual Trusts.

[Joe DiMaggio]

If there was to be an SPL 1 & 2 both with 10 teams all with equal voting rights, then I can see a couple of seasons with the two leagues being a bearable sacrifice if it was followed by a vote by the provincial teams (assuming 19 votes wasn't the requirement) to merge the two into a league of 20.

A league of 20 is just getting ridiculas. We could never support such a large top flight in Scotland.

[TopSix]

20 would not be feasible and the infirm would only be playing each other twice a season - a big no-no for TV. If Scotland hypothetically encompassed the North East of England - eg Sunderland, Newcastle, middlesbrough etc then 20 teams would be a goer.

[Joe DiMaggio]

20 would not be feasible and the infirm would only be playing each other twice a season - a big no-no for TV. If Scotland hypothetically encompassed the North East of England - eg Sunderland, Newcastle, middlesbrough etc then 20 teams would be a goer.

Better get invading then, I'd support an 18 team league then. Might as well nab Carlisle while were at it.

[bdu98196]

Why stop there, if we went a few miles further south still we could get Man U, Man C & Leeds!! What a ludirciuos idea.

[12th Man]

Where is all of the proposed extra revenue coming from, The Government? Considering cuts in defense, education, hospitals, council staff etc. I dont know where this magic pot of money is coming from.

TV revenue?, In these difficult times who is going to have money to spend on sport on TV let alone the extra number of viewers required to make things pay their way, even advertising is getting tight across the board. one word could sum up these elusive promises and that is Setanta.

I would assume with in 2 years of 2x 10 team league, the TV broadcasters will turn around and say that this is no longer financially viable.

The SPL will then realize that its the fans that support their club through thick and thin and not Television.

[Kirishima]

I can confirm the The Supporters Trust have been consulted by Neil Doncaster, we were invited to Hampden or to discuss by phone. Our Chairman, Peter Murphy, spoke to Neil Doncaster on Thursday afternoon and his thoughts can be found in the local press as well as the official ICT site and the Supporters Trust website at Supporters Trust Website where you will also find information on our upcoming AGM.

You will probably have heard of Supporters Direct as they carried out a survey of fans opinions and presented them to the SPL. Supporters Direct are the governing body for all Supporters Trusts around the Country and have earned the respect of the governing bodies as the voice of the fans via the individual Trusts.

Thanks for the info. Is there anything to report about what was discussed about on Thursday? Were the Supporters Trust able to go to Hampden? I appreciate there has been some vague attempt by the SPL to court opinion, but the survey by Supporters Direct has not been part of the process, as the SPL have not cited it, considered it, and the steering group is made up of 6 chairmen from SPL clubs.

Nothing about this process has been about the fans, save for some token gestures that were just for show. They have responded to the fans wishes by dismissing them out of hand, and quite condescendingly too, "No one else has put any alternatives up. I think those who want 16 teams in the top flight are deluding themselves." (Doncaster)

I would hope that Doncasters desperate last-minute PR stunts are recognised for whaat they are, lip-service.

[Yngwie]

The vote has been dropped, or at least postponed.

BBC

[Kirishima]

2009/10/11 Timeline

• 
  
  
• Feb 2009: McLeish appointed as Chair of Scottish Football Review
  
• Mar 2009: 12 SPL clubs' officials meet to discuss SPL2
  
• May 2009: Scottish Football Review launched
  
• Apr 22nd 2010: Supporters Direct says fans want teams to play each other twice only
  
• Apr 23rd: First-part of Henry McLeish's report
  
• Nov 1st: 6-club Steering group meet to revamp SPL. Anger from other 6 SPL clubs of their exclusion
  
• Dec 16th: Second-part of Henry McLeish's report. 10 team-league idea with SPL2
  
• Dec 16th: Supporters Survey shows huge opposition to a 10-team league
  
• Dec 20th: Meeting of all SPL clubs cancelled due to weather
  
• Dec 24th: Excluded clubs meet with Doncaster
  
• Jan 4th 2011: Re-scheduled meeting happens, SPL confident 10-team league idea will be passed
  
• Jan 5th: Fans flood forums against 10-team SPL, Chairmen refute that it's a done deal
  
• Jan 8th: Jan 17th vote cancelled
  

This has been a farce, it's not in anyway been done right, the fans survey was ignored, 6 clubs were excluded from talks, then the SPL say it's all about TV money and buying in players, yet in the middle of last year, 14 teams looked most likely.

I don't think Doncaster and Topping have done anything but lose any respect they had from the fans. It's been a mess.

Edited January 9, 2011 by Kirishima

[old caley girl]

BBC reporting that it is likely that the vote is cancelled re reconstruction due to not having enough support to get it through. Lobbying clubs to change their minds will continue however. :irritated:

[madsooz]

BBC reporting that it is likely that the vote is cancelled re reconstruction due to not having enough support to get it through. Lobbying clubs to change their minds will continue however. :irritated:

Good news. Not yet the wooden stake through the heart that this proposal deserves unfortunately. Why, after two cancelled votes, can the SPL not forget about it?

[Jeepsaw]

• The creation a pyramid structure in Scottish football -------------------- AYE
• Permitted, one-off, short-term opt-outs from the SPL's stadia criteria -------------------------- WHY
• A merging of the SPL with the SFL by inviting all 30 SLF member clubs to join a 42-club league under one umbrella banner ----------------- AYE
• The creation of a 10-team SPL league, with a 12-team Championship and two lower divisions ----------------------- NAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYY!
• The creation of an extra relegation place in the SPL through play-offs between the top two divisions ------------------------- 2UP 2DOWN 16TEAM TOP FLIGHT
• A redistribution of money away from the top two positions in the league and reallocating it to the other eight clubs ----------------- TO THE OTHER 14 CLUBS AYE
• An obligation on all Premier League and Championship clubs to become part of the SFA Youth Initiative ---------------------- AYE
• An earlier start to the season and a return of the winter shutdown ------------------- PROBABLY AYE

MOST OF THESE THINGS WOULD BE GOOD FOR THE GAME IF NOT FOR THE RIDICULOUS 10/12 IDEA WOULD IT NAY?

[CaleyD]

BBC reporting that it is likely that the vote is cancelled re reconstruction due to not having enough support to get it through. Lobbying clubs to change their minds will continue however. :irritated:

This is ridiculous...what kind of democratic system allows the delay of a vote because someone knows they aren't going to get the outcome they want? The longer it drags on the more time and money is being wasted on plans and proposals that don't meet the desires of the people. Get the vote over with, scrap the bollocks you've put on the table, resign if you don't like it and allow someone else take over and do the job properly.

• The creation a pyramid structure in Scottish football -------------------- AYE
• Permitted, one-off, short-term opt-outs from the SPL's stadia criteria -------------------------- WHY
• A merging of the SPL with the SFL by inviting all 30 SLF member clubs to join a 42-club league under one umbrella banner ----------------- AYE
• The creation of a 10-team SPL league, with a 12-team Championship and two lower divisions ----------------------- NAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYY!
• The creation of an extra relegation place in the SPL through play-offs between the top two divisions ------------------------- 2UP 2DOWN 16TEAM TOP FLIGHT
• A redistribution of money away from the top two positions in the league and reallocating it to the other eight clubs ----------------- TO THE OTHER 14 CLUBS AYE
• An obligation on all Premier League and Championship clubs to become part of the SFA Youth Initiative ---------------------- AYE
• An earlier start to the season and a return of the winter shutdown ------------------- PROBABLY AYE

MOST OF THESE THINGS WOULD BE GOOD FOR THE GAME IF NOT FOR THE RIDICULOUS 10/12 IDEA WOULD IT NAY?

On the face of it, yes, most of that would make sense....but when you start to peel back the spin and look at each of the proposals in more depth you find they are fundamentally flawed and, IMO, many of them would never come to fruition and are only now being put out there so that if (when) the plans for a 10 team SPL are rejected (if we ever get round to seeing a vote on it) then Doncaster and his cronies can say "look at all these good things we were going to do and you voted against them"....much the same as what happens with lobbying and manifestos etc in the lead up to a General Election.

Why must Doncaster play the "all or nothing" card? Why can't things like redistribution of money within the SPL, relaxing stadium criteria, creation of additional relegation/promotion place, obligations towards youth initiatives and the early start/winter break all be introduced without the changes to the league size? No reason I can think of, other than using them to bribe clubs into accepting the 10 team top league and allowing the SPL the remit to take control over the whole game in this country. They can't look after the 12 teams they have already, heaven knows what kind of shambles we'd end up with if they were looking after another 30 teams.

[Heilandee]

[Charles Bannerman]

BBC reporting that it is likely that the vote is cancelled re reconstruction due to not having enough support to get it through. Lobbying clubs to change their minds will continue however. :irritated:

BBC reporting that Annabel Goldie has cancelled the Scottish Election on May 5th due to not having enough support to become First Minister. Lobbying the electorate to change their minds will continue however.

Edited April 6, 2011 by Charles Bannerman