Why havent we built on promotion to the top flight

[Harry Chibber]

I find your last analogy rather confusing.  Especially Dundee....if it wasn't for the fans there who cared enough to fight the owners/board then they could very well have disappeared altogether.  I'd rather our fans took action to stop us getting that far down the road in the first place.....and that involves a little more than just turning up for the entertainment.

Dundee are a perfect example of why we shouldn't keep Niculae

[tm4tj]

I agree with again, the entertainment value is not as bad as some perpetual grumblers like to make out.  The 3-2 with ten men game against Celtic was not too shabby either.  Nobody is being forced to go along to the football, enjoy it while it is there, it won't last forever, then you will really have something to moan about.

I FIND IT STRAIGHTFORWARD...........There are always teams worse off than ourselves.

[Kind of Blue]

  The thread title asks the question Why haven't we bult on promotion to the SPL and I feel the answer sits at an office in Tullochs.  Our majority shareholder is strangeling the club - He has demonstrated he is only too aware of this as well by appointing a puppet for a chairman.

Jay_7, as far as I'm aware there's not a queue of individuals out there waiting to be chairman of ICT; and more importantly with the ability to invest significantly into the club.  Maybe you know of such individuals?  We'll never know just how much Alan Savage was prepared to invest if he stayed as chairman, but he would have some catching up to do if he was going to match the investment (including off the field staffing and other resources) made by Tulloch over the last 8 years.

If David Sutherland was to ever withdraw his support from this club, then we would be facing a very bleak future indeed.

[CaleyD]

I find your last analogy rather confusing.  Especially Dundee....if it wasn't for the fans there who cared enough to fight the owners/board then they could very well have disappeared altogether.  I'd rather our fans took action to stop us getting that far down the road in the first place.....and that involves a little more than just turning up for the entertainment.

Dundee are a perfect example of why we shouldn't keep Niculae

Of course, and that's why your suggesting on another thread that we should replace him with 2 or 3 other players of lesser quality which would expand our wage bill into the bargain  :rolleyes02:

I agree with again, the entertainment value is not as bad as some perpetual grumblers like to make out.  The 3-2 with ten men game against Celtic was not too shabby either.  Nobody is being forced to go along to the football, enjoy it while it is there, it won't last forever, then you will really have something to moan about.

I FIND IT STRAIGHTFORWARD...........There are always teams worse off than ourselves.

The footballs so good that you never missed any goals last season because you were more entertained by what the Stewards were doing did you?  :015:

[CaleyD]

  The thread title asks the question Why haven't we bult on promotion to the SPL and I feel the answer sits at an office in Tullochs.  Our majority shareholder is strangeling the club - He has demonstrated he is only too aware of this as well by appointing a puppet for a chairman.

Jay_7, as far as I'm aware there's not a queue of individuals out there waiting to be chairman of ICT; and more importantly with the ability to invest significantly into the club.  Maybe you know of such individuals?  We'll never know just how much Alan Savage was prepared to invest if he stayed as chairman, but he would have some catching up to do if he was going to match the investment (including off the field staffing and other resources) made by Tulloch over the last 8 years.

If David Sutherland was to ever withdraw his support from this club, then we would be facing a very bleak future indeed.

Maybe you know of such individuals? - I do, some of whom would have done so long before now had we not had Sutherland acting the dictator in recent years.

We'll never know just how much Alan Savage was prepared to invest if he stayed as chairman - No, Sutherland was far happier to see the guy invest ?270,000 and then chase him off....that's always a great way to encourage other investors too  :014:

As for the suggestion that Sutherland should be allowed to do as he pleases just because he's invested money, it's laughable.  Next time your speaking to him, ask him just how much money he would make if/when he gets his stadium relocation plans approved and ask him if all the money he gave to ICT out of the goodness of his heart was a worthwhile investment.

[Harry Chibber]

I find your last analogy rather confusing.  Especially Dundee....if it wasn't for the fans there who cared enough to fight the owners/board then they could very well have disappeared altogether.  I'd rather our fans took action to stop us getting that far down the road in the first place.....and that involves a little more than just turning up for the entertainment.

Dundee are a perfect example of why we shouldn't keep Niculae

Of course, and that's why your suggesting on another thread that we should replace him with 2 or 3 other players of lesser quality which would expand our wage bill into the bargain  :rolleyes02:

I'd rather have a well balanced squad than 1 good player... what if Niculae got injured? What if he has a poor season?

Hibs are the best example, they have produced > ?10mil selling 'key' players in the last 4 years and still finished in the top 6 last season

1 player doesn't make a team

[SMEE]

  Next time your speaking to him, ask him just how much money he would make if/when he gets his stadium relocation plans approved and ask him if all the money he gave to ICT out of the goodness of his heart was a worthwhile investment.

I have sed before ( on the older sites) that Sutherand is a businessman thro and thro and wasnt pumping money into the club for the love of it! I was given pelters if i recall correctly  :017:

[Kind of Blue]

  The thread title asks the question Why haven't we bult on promotion to the SPL and I feel the answer sits at an office in Tullochs.  Our majority shareholder is strangeling the club - He has demonstrated he is only too aware of this as well by appointing a puppet for a chairman.

Jay_7, as far as I'm aware there's not a queue of individuals out there waiting to be chairman of ICT; and more importantly with the ability to invest significantly into the club.  Maybe you know of such individuals?  We'll never know just how much Alan Savage was prepared to invest if he stayed as chairman, but he would have some catching up to do if he was going to match the investment (including off the field staffing and other resources) made by Tulloch over the last 8 years.

If David Sutherland was to ever withdraw his support from this club, then we would be facing a very bleak future indeed.

Maybe you know of such individuals? - I do, some of whom would have done so long before now had we not had Sutherland acting the dictator in recent years.

We'll never know just how much Alan Savage was prepared to invest if he stayed as chairman - No, Sutherland was far happier to see the guy invest ?270,000 and then chase him off....that's always a great way to encourage other investors too  :014:

As for the suggestion that Sutherland should be allowed to do as he pleases just because he's invested money, it's laughable.  Next time your speaking to him, ask him just how much money he would make if/when he gets his stadium relocation plans approved and ask him if all the money he gave to ICT out of the goodness of his heart was a worthwhile investment.

Maybe you know of such individuals? - I do, some of whom would have done so long before now had we not had Sutherland acting the dictator in recent years. - ok fair enough, but do they have the financial clout to make a serious investment?

As for the suggestion that Sutherland should be allowed to do as he pleases just because he's invested money, it's laughable.  Next time your speaking to him, ask him just how much money he would make if/when he gets his stadium relocation plans approved and ask him if all the money he gave to ICT out of the goodness of his heart was a worthwhile investment.

[tm4tj]

More than just a football stadium, variety and all round entertainment.

Great value for money.

[Alex MacLeod]

More than just a football stadium, variety and all round entertainment.

Great value for money.

And if its been a bad day at the footie just come on here and be cheered up.

[Jay_7]

  The thread title asks the question Why haven't we bult on promotion to the SPL and I feel the answer sits at an office in Tullochs.  Our majority shareholder is strangeling the club - He has demonstrated he is only too aware of this as well by appointing a puppet for a chairman.

Jay_7, as far as I'm aware there's not a queue of individuals out there waiting to be chairman of ICT; and more importantly with the ability to invest significantly into the club.  Maybe you know of such individuals?  We'll never know just how much Alan Savage was prepared to invest if he stayed as chairman, but he would have some catching up to do if he was going to match the investment (including off the field staffing and other resources) made by Tulloch over the last 8 years.

If David Sutherland was to ever withdraw his support from this club, then we would be facing a very bleak future indeed.

Do you wonder why there isn't a queue of individuals waiting to be chairman?  Perhaps it's a similar reason to there not being a queue of managers waiting outside Tynecastle?

I have never once suggested that David Sutherland should withdraw his support.  I have pointed out that I would like him to sh*t or get off the pot - He either wants the power to run the club or not.  If he could remain on the BoD as a majority shareholder and keep his nose out of the chairmans business, then I'd have no qualms with him at all.  But that's simply not the case.

As for your point above about Sutherland only acting to the benefit of the club, was chasing Savage benefitting the club any?  As you say, we'll never know how much more he was prepared to invest, we may even have seen a proper club shop.  Sutherland will do very nicely indeed out of a stadium relocation.

[clacher_holiday2]

Caley D and Jay have said it all for me.

All I can add is a message to the club that our support is not mandatory, as it is for any club in Scotland, St Mirren and Falkirk fans wouldnt be taking up a greater number of season tickets this year if they werent out making positive moves in the transfer market or making big upgrades in their infrastructure.  Theyll be able to spend more money than us from now on and I suppose they already are, if we get relegated then the club hasnt done enough in the SPL off the park to secure a future in the 1st IMO, more handouts required.

So the Saints and Bairns have moving beyond us as they should with gradual improvement, Hamilton look like theyre taking the first steps to doing the same with greater involvement in the local community already, standing still is as good as going backwards in the SPL.

Les Kidger around to comment on fans thoughts on why Savage wasnt allowed to implement any of his plans?  Should we expect more 'dont be ridiculous' comments?

I'm just scared the straw thatll break the camels back could well be on its way.  We shouldve been stacking straw on a tank this past few years ffs.

[Alex MacLeod]

There's been a lot of very interesting, and valid, comments made on this thread. How about those who made them put them to the Supporters Trust and formally request that questions be asked at board level.

[Jay_7]

Clacher addressed that in his opening post:

The sobering truth is theres very little we can do, the trust is as toothless as I warned it would be aslong as it required permission to have a larger stake in the club and the rest of us have no other outlet.  We can only sit back and take what garbage is given to us, aslong as we are willing to sit back and take it.

Did the supporters trust ever get anything positive done about the standard of stewarding?  IIRC, we got a message from Mike Smith to the tune of "we don't make the rules, the SPL do"

The fact is, the only thing that will make the BoD sit up and take notice is a down-turn in attendances.

[RiG]

There's been a lot of very interesting, and valid, comments made on this thread. How about those who made them put them to the Supporters Trust and formally request that questions be asked at board level.

The ST could take them from this website and put them to the club themselves no? I can't see any of the posters who have come up with the questions having a problem with that. Would be interesting to see/hear the response.

[Morgan Spice]

Commercially with things such as merchandise and ticket prices etc I do think we are behind in terms of other SPL clubs but footballing wise we have not gone backwards.  The end is coming to a huge group of players that have  helped take this club to where it is now.  However now we are rebuilding what looks like it has the POTENTIAL to be a very good side.  I think that supporting the club and being patient is what we need to do. I do agree with something being done with ticket prices and catering around the stadium.  Football just is not affordable like it used to be especially for people with families etc.

[caley100]

I cant really understand where all the complaints are coming from, as Gordy says we are now quite estabished in the SPL, we have beaten Cetlic and Rangers, we have our moments on the pitch ( good & bad) 

Cast your minds back to april 2004, when our average gate was 1900 or so, from there we have a pretty good stadium          ( which meets our needs ) and is not that far from the city centre.

The board have done something about the tickets for youngsters, which i applaud them for and only the club shop lets the side down at the moment.

The stewarding is an area which could do with a review, Mr Smith quotes the SPL rules which he has to abide by, however, it may be that a 'blind eye' is used for section G to some extent as it is for the away fans of most teams who stand for most of the game.

I'm happy with ICT so far and i'm proud to support them. 

[CaleyD]

Nobody is calling in to question how well we have done in the past or what an achievement it's been, but whilst everyone has taken their foot of the accelerator to pat themselves on the back and bask in the glory other clubs are passing us by and leaving us behind.  If Sutherland and our Board think the club has gone as far as it can then it's time for them to step aside and let people with fresh ideas and new energy in to try and take us forward again.

As has been pointed out, other clubs have been at this for 100 years or more, so what makes ICT think they have achieved all that can be achieved in 14 years?  For some fans (and it would appear those in charge) we've slipped into a comfort zone and people seem to fear the idea of pushing on from that.

I'm not suggesting we're a top SPL team, or that we have the resources to sustain an upper league position on a constant basis, but it would be nice to know that the club has some ambition to keep pushing us as far up the league each season as is possible instead of the "this is our lot, be happy with it" attitude.  So long as we keep thinking like that then our goal each season IS going to be survival, but I believe this club has more potential than that.

[Jay_7]

As I have said on numerous occasions on this thread, the complaints are primarily about David Sutherland.  He chased away a man that was prepared to invest and make improvements to the club.  He wants to run the club, but doesn't want to to be in the limelight...  Sutherland was also the man that gave Brewster his job back, did he listen to any of the fans?  Did he f**k.  What he did do, was he led everyone to believe that Neil Warnock was in contention for the job.  I believe he even put Warnocks name into a poll at a meeting with the fans...

Harry Chibber has yet to answer this, so Caley100, what would it take for you to decide action was required?  I was told to look at Dunfermline, Livi, Gretna and Dundee as examples of why we should be pleased with ICT... They all sat back and let relegation happen.

[Libero]

Nobody is calling in to question how well we have done in the past or what an achievement it's been, but whilst everyone has taken their foot of the accelerator to pat themselves on the back and bask in the glory other clubs are passing us by and leaving us behind.  If Sutherland and our Board think the club has gone as far as it can then it's time for them to step aside and let people with fresh ideas and new energy in to try and take us forward again.

As has been pointed out, other clubs have been at this for 100 years or more, so what makes ICT think they have achieved all that can be achieved in 14 years?  For some fans (and it would appear those in charge) we've slipped into a comfort zone and people seem to fear the idea of pushing on from that.

I'm not suggesting we're a top SPL team, or that we have the resources to sustain an upper league position on a constant basis, but it would be nice to know that the club has some ambition to keep pushing us as far up the league each season as is possible instead of the "this is our lot, be happy with it" attitude.  So long as we keep thinking like that then our goal each season IS going to be survival, but I believe this club has more potential than that.

that completely epitomises how i feel at the moment.

it would be nice to know what the boards views/plans/ambitions are for the future or are they happy enough to peak at the lower end of the SPL table.

[KingBeastie]

And if its been a bad day at the footie just come on here and be cheered up.

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[absent friend]

It would appear that two, I was going to call them supporters, people on here have knowledge of negative goings on in the board room and I find it difficult to understand why they need the Trust to put forward their views! If they already are in the board room listening to the goings-on why don't they put their points themselves.

OR

Are they only thinking this is going on? Perhaps two and two does make their five!  To come onto a board like this providing indepth analysis as to why board members are doing/not doing specific things, in their opinion, is totally wrong! As some one above has posted 'don't hint - tell us it as it is' then we can all make up our minds. At this time, it looks like a junior playground tiff.

It is difficult to run any organisation, more difficult to run a collective board with many opinions, so I can only assume that no other member of the board has any thoughts on the good running of the club or are two timid to speak if only one person is making all the decisions!  I don't think so!

Let's leave all this negativity to the tail end of the season IF we are having a problem and face this new season with the confidence it deserves ( if you can't find confidence - tough!!)  This thread is rather like booing your own players - as they line up for the kick-off!!

The only team we have not yet beat in the top flight will be hammered by us in the first game AND we will be top of the SPL.

MAGIC. 

[Jay_7]

It would appear that two, I was going to call them supporters, people on here have knowledge of negative goings on in the board room and I find it difficult to understand why they need the Trust to put forward their views! If they already are in the board room listening to the goings-on why don't they put their points themselves.

I assume this is aimed at me?  I don't doubt your support of the club, so I'd appreciate it if you didn't doubt mine.  You don't need to be on the board to know what's going on.

OR

Are they only thinking this is going on? Perhaps two and two does make their five!  To come onto a board like this providing indepth analysis as to why board members are doing/not doing specific things, in their opinion, is totally wrong! As some one above has posted 'don't hint - tell us it as it is' then we can all make up our minds. At this time, it looks like a junior playground tiff.

In you're opinion it's wrong.  I have not been hinting, as has been requested.  I have spelt it out for everyone, but when I did, I was told I was "clutching at straws".  Make of that what you will.

It is difficult to run any organisation, more difficult to run a collective board with many opinions, so I can only assume that no other member of the board has any thoughts on the good running of the club or are two timid to speak if only one person is making all the decisions!  I don't think so!

You don't think Sutherland has surrounded himself with yes-men?  :014:

Let's leave all this negativity to the tail end of the season IF we are having a problem and face this new season with the confidence it deserves ( if you can't find confidence - tough!!)  This thread is rather like booing your own players - as they line up for the kick-off!!

Yes that's the spirit, we'll worry about it at the end of the season when it's too late to do anything.  :029:

The only team we have not yet beat in the top flight will be hammered by us in the first game AND we will be top of the SPL.

MAGIC.   

[Scotty]

Absent Friend .... Overall, I cannot really argue with you as you do make some valid comments so let me just comment on some of what you have said.

It would appear that two, I was going to call them supporters, people on here have knowledge of negative goings on in the board room and I find it difficult to understand why they need the Trust to put forward their views! If they already are in the board room listening to the goings-on why don't they put their points themselves.

I have heard various stories over the last few months about lots of different things from several different people and I must say I am not happy if even a fraction of it is true. Some of it may be from the boardroom, some may not, its hard to tell when there are so many leaks within the club. I can however confirm that some of what I have been told has proved to be extremely accurate (as it has now happened) whilst I concede that some other parts may or may not be getting told from a skewed viewpoint. I hasten to add that not everything I have heard has been posted on here by me. I pick and choose what I post.

As for the trust ... I am sorry to say that I would not channel any of my issues through them as they appear to be somewhat toothless. It is disappointing to say this as I know many people involved with it and they are good people, who - in some cases - have worked tirelessly for the supporters for many years, and who are most definitely ICT supporters through and through but whether it is the club appearing to treat them with contempt, or whether they just have not had an issue yet where they have had to be seen to take an opposing viewpoint to the club for more than 5 minutes, the overall impression is that they have become the club's "**** deflector" when it comes to fan issues.

PS - not sure if I am one of the 2 you refer to or not, but if I am, please do not question my support for the club. I am no less a supporter because of where I now live or because I question the motives and machinations of certain people employed by it. I would be delighted to sit here and type out positive messages day in and day out and when they do something right, I will do that and back them to the hilt on it but, conversely, after so many years of being "required" to toe the party line, when I now see or hear from multiple sources about some of the shambolic stuff going on behind the scenes then it is fair game as far as I am concerned.

Are they only thinking this is going on? Perhaps two and two does make their five!  To come onto a board like this providing indepth analysis as to why board members are doing/not doing specific things, in their opinion, is totally wrong! As some one above has posted 'don't hint - tell us it as it is' then we can all make up our minds. At this time, it looks like a junior playground tiff.

Sometimes you have to hint at things as the whole story is not yet in the public domain and sources could be compromised. I concede that sometimes the stories coming out may be skewed to the viewpoint of the person telling it but that is equally true when the club purposely float a story (eg. Warnock)

It is difficult to run any organisation, more difficult to run a collective board with many opinions, so I can only assume that no other member of the board has any thoughts on the good running of the club or are two timid to speak if only one person is making all the decisions!  I don't think so!

I have been on enough committees in my time that I know exactly how difficult it is to run even a small organisation. I also know that in committees like this there usually tends to be just a handful of people who wield the majority of the power because they have more responsibility whilst others can sometimes be there to just make up the numbers. I dont think the ICT board is like this because one of the (good) things David Sutherland did do in either his first or second stint as Chairman was to reduce the size of the ICT board so that there was less chance of "hangers-on".

Even if I do not like some of the things coming from the boardroom, I can both respect and applaud the members involved because of their hard work. However, I would also respectfully suggest that not everyone on the board is of the same mind in every issue, but when it comes down to it they have something called "collective responsibility" that dictates they show a united front in public despite their own personal feelings. Speak to some privately and you may get a different viewpoint.

Let's leave all this negativity to the tail end of the season IF we are having a problem and face this new season with the confidence it deserves ( if you can't find confidence - tough!!)  This thread is rather like booing your own players - as they line up for the kick-off!!

No. If there is a cancer you cut it out. The treatment is horrible, makes you feel very bad, and there is no guarantee it will work but if you allow it to spread it gets worse and ultimately becomes terminal. We spent a good portion of last season watching the workings of the boardroom and it was not pleasant. Anyone who thinks this did not have an effect in every corner of the stadium and on the pitch has their head in the sand. I want to applaud my team on the park (and I always will be it in person or by jumping round my home office in Toronto) but I also WANT to applaud the rest of the team in the boardroom and in the stadium but I cannot do that when they appear to be doing things that I feel are contrary to, or stagnating the development of the club we all support. Some of these people are (or have been) employees whose only loyalty is to the paycheck ... we are fans whose loyalty is borne out of passion and love for the club and although that flame is hard to extinguish, it is not impossible.

The only team we have not yet beat in the top flight will be hammered by us in the first game AND we will be top of the SPL. MAGIC. 

Here I agree with you 100%  :003:

We are at a crossroads right now and Marius Niculae is not really the issue. He is merely a symbol of the issue. Do we try to push forward and continue growing as a club or have we conceded that this is our lot, we have reached our peak and the only thing to do is consolidate our position and be happy we are even in the SPL .....

With a practical head on, I can see the argument for fiscal prudence. We have low crowds, lower turnover than most (if not all) SPL clubs and we have been fortunate to stay debt free for much of our existence thanks to the likes of David Sutherland. If he had not come in when he did (the first time), things may have been a lot different than they are now, in fact we might have gone the way of Gretna. I will always be grateful to him for that, and for his steadying hand since then on a few other occasions. He is without doubt a very smart and astute businessman and he has served the club well. However, as has been said before, he either wants to run the club or not. If he does, then fair enough, if not, then whoever is in the position needs to be allowed to do their job.

With a less practical head on, I enjoyed the fact that Alan Savage managed to get someone of Marius Niculae's profile to the club and had plans to upgrade a lot of the stadium infrastructure (shop, car park, possibly a bar etc). Regardless of what anyone thinks of Marius' good or bad performances throughout the season I dont think anyone can argue that he certainly raised the profile of the club on the European or even World stage. ICT was mentioned frequently during the Euros, even on coverage over this side of the pond, and I was disappointed that the club failed to try and capitalise on that by perhaps using Marius as the carrot to persuade other players to come here. I will also feel extremely sad if he goes as he will not yield the club as much from his transfer as I feel he could have done on the park.

Its a crying shame that the two aforementioned businessmen seemed to be on opposing sides with regards to the development of the club with one favouring a "tiny steps" mentality and the other perhaps taking greater leaps .... As a fan of the club I just think it would have been awesome if they could have met somewhere in the middle, formed what I think would have been a formidable partnership, and taken the club forward in good size steps. DS could rein in AS when his ideas got too large and AS could gee DS up when his vision may have been more parochial.

[Harry Chibber]

As I have said on numerous occasions on this thread, the complaints are primarily about David Sutherland.  1) He chased away a man that was prepared to invest and make improvements to the club.  2) He wants to run the club, but doesn't want to to be in the limelight... Sutherland was also the man that gave Brewster his job back, did he listen to any of the fans?  Did he f**k.  What he did do, was he led everyone to believe that 3) Neil Warnock was in contention for the job.  I believe he even put Warnocks name into a poll at a meeting with the fans...

4) Harry Chibber has yet to answer this, so Caley100, what would it take for you to decide action was required?  I was told to look at Dunfermline, Livi, Gretna and Dundee as examples of why we should be pleased with ICT... They all sat back and let relegation happen.

1) Do you know anything about the invester? Is there a chance Sutherland was preventing a dictatorship like there is at Hearts?

2) Some/most would say that's a good thing!

3) Warnock admitted he was never interested in the job

4) Not sure, never had to worry about it, the team I support has always made sure I don't have to worry about it.  I care about the club but at the end of the day I pay money because I want to watch them play football.  The internal matters I leave to the people that are paid to do them. 

I am more concerned with what has sparked this sudden paranoia when nothing has gone wrong!  You/I don't see the amount of work that goes on behind the scenes but what you can see is the continued success of SPL stability.  Since being establised we have never had to deal with failure and for that the board deserve full credit.  If we did get relegated, and that's a big if, we wouldn't fall to pieces because the board have kept wages to be one of the lowest in the SPL.  Personally I hope that the majority of the fee we receive from the Niculae transfer will go towards improving things at the stadium as well the playing staff but we need that massive investment to push things along.