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County1966

Terry Butcher

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Evening firstly all the best in the Cup Final just gutted for Gary that he's suspend

Anyway you're thoughts on Terry Butcher he's favourite for the job at Newport County Hibs fan been on our forum stating that he will basically kill our club he's not that bad is he!

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:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

 

Narcissistic Personality Disorder is characterized by a long-standing pattern of grandiosity (either in fantasy or actual behavior), an overwhelming need for admiration, and usually a complete lack of empathy toward others. People with this disorder often believe they are of primary importance in everybody’s life or to anyone they meet. While this pattern of behavior may be appropriate for a king in 16th Century England, it is generally considered inappropriate for most ordinary people today.

People with narcissistic personality disorder often display snobbish, disdainful, or patronizing attitudes. For example, an individual with this disorder may complain about a clumsy waiter’s “rudeness” or “stupidity” or conclude a medical evaluation with a condescending evaluation of the physician.

In laypeople terms, someone with this disorder may be described simply as a  “narcissist” or as someone with “narcissism.” Both of these terms generally refer to someone with narcissistic personality disorder.

A personality disorder is an enduring pattern of inner experience and behavior that deviates from the norm of the individual’s culture. The pattern is seen in two or more of the following areas: cognition; affect; interpersonal functioning; or impulse control. The enduring pattern is inflexible and pervasive across a broad range of personal and social situations. It typically leads to significant distress or impairment in social, work or other areas of functioning. The pattern is stable and of long duration, and its onset can be traced back to early adulthood or adolescence.

Symptoms of Narcissistic Personality Disorder
In order for a person to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) they must meet five or more of the following  symptoms:

■Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
■Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
■Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
■Requires excessive admiration
■Has a very strong sense of entitlement, e.g., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
■Is exploitative of others, e.g., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
■Lacks empathy, e.g., is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
■Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
■Regularly shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

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He is an ideal manager for a club with a tight budget, where the players are not superstars, and have something to prove.

He will bring out the best in them, so long as they remain subordinate to him. His way is the only way.

He does not have such a great record in bigger clubs where the players are less likely to look up to him.

I think he requires complete subservience from his players, which is consistent with IHE's cut-and-paste (above), to succeed.

Any rebellion or revolt and he will fail.

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If he gets the job I will be down to the bookies immediately to look at the odds of Newport County being relegated (sorry 1066 but I am actually being serious) _ I got a lot of flak on here also with my narcissism diagnosis and initially received the same from the incumbent Hibees. As far as I am concerned he ticks all the boxes.

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He joined us in Jan 2009 when we here headed for the drop.  We did go down but bounced straight up in some style.  We progressed in the following years and he left us in November 2013 with us sitting in 2nd spot in Scotland's top flight.  So that's actually a pretty good record.  Clearly we are doing well this year and the squad we have is basically players Butcher brought in. 

 

Butcher and his team seemed to have a knack of finding players who were underperforming in the lower reaches of the English game and getting the best out of them here.  There is a downside to him as others have made pretty obvious.  People here are bitter about the manner of his going but to be fair, that is because before he decided to jump ship to one of our richer rivals, many here thought he was fantastic and wouldn't hear a word said against him.  They feel betrayed.  Personally I see no reason why he can't do a good job at Newport but if he doesn't take a liking to certain players he will be ruthless in getting them out.  As long as he is surround by players who are his players it'll be fine.

 

Oh - and you might need to reinforce the dressing room doors and walls.

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It is not all bad news - Butcher has often shown a deep desire to be at the centre of things, served by his extreme self-confidence, a combination that made him attractive and positively charming. He was often defended and lauded by a coterie of admiring friends and associates (co-dependents), protected by the armour of positive self-regard. Someone with a mild-to-moderate case of narcissism can float through life feeling pretty good about himself. But as was the case at ICT Butcher began to feel entitled to special treatment, he was easily offended and readily harboured grudges. Yet like most narcissists Butcher became very popular—at least in the short term.

 

In most circumstances, narcissism doesn’t go over well. We tend not to like individuals who exhibit arrogance or too much dominance or hostility—all traits associated with the narcissist. But there’s one big exception to the rule: leadership. For some reason, when we rate narcissists on leadership qualities, we put them up there with the best, ranking them high on those attributes that we think make a good leader and happily putting responsibility into their hands. And it actually kind of makes sense. Some of the same characteristics that signal good leadership—confidence, authority, dominance—also make for a narcissistic personality type. N

 

evertheless, some narcissists are considered productive because of their ability to inspire others with their visionary and charismatic personalities that are effective in environments that call for strong leadership. However, although narcissists do see the big picture and have a strong vision, research shows they are not good at working with other people, and eventually they become detrimental to the organization.

They make good figureheads, in part because of their ability to articulate goals and attract people to their way of thinking. But in terms of day to day leadership, they can be toxic with subordinates. That becomes especially apparent after their employees get to know the way the narcissistic leader operates and dare to challenge. The favourable first impressions they make are not sustainable over a period of time.

 

The downside? Temper tantrums, unreasonable expectations, shocking selfishness and a complete inability to engage in teamwork. Butcher became a God for a time at Inverness and to be fair he was a figurehead and he did attract players. But the end brought disdain to most and an anger that they had been duped.

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So, in short, he will do alright for about three years or so. Probably about the average term for a manager these days!

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Combine Buckett and Doofers Dad's assessments and throw in a bit of IHE's diagnosis as to why this is the case and you have it in a nutshell.   

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If you research the ButcherWatch thread from a year ago you will probably notice that most fans wanted Butcher to stay and could not believe he wanted to leave

us but it was eventually about money and potential success & glory. We soon turned against him even before he left.

What would Newport be able to offer him?

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What you should look at is Butcher or Butcher and Malpas. Together at Motherwell and ICT they did a good job.Butcher on his own at Sunderland, Coventry, Sydney and Brentford was a disaster. I think you can discount his time at Hibs as the club was rotten from the top to the bottom and players were on good money but didn't care.

Edited by Big G
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If you research the ButcherWatch thread from a year ago you will probably notice that most fans wanted Butcher to stay and could not believe he wanted to leave

us but it was eventually about money and potential success & glory. We soon turned against him even before he left.

What would Newport be able to offer him?

A fresh start in English football with a side that came close to league two playoffs so foundations there

What standard do you think league two football would be in Scottish leagues

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Butcher still sees himself as an Orc, don't be surprised to see him working with McCall yet suppose it all depends on what happens with the play offs

Butcher is history can't believe some ICT fans still seem to have some weird obsession with him or maybe that's just the ones that enjoy a foray to Govan now and again

Dougal

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I think some of the criticisms of him are harsh, probably stemming from bitterness over his departure.

 

Can't comment on his record before he arrived at ICT, but he was arguably the most successful manager in Scotland (on a pound for pound basis) during his time here. He was pretty ruthless at getting rid of underperforming, or aging players, including club legends. But when he was given time to finish the job (unlike at Hibs) he put together a brilliant team on a small budget. It was no fluke either. During his stewardship we lost our better players almost every season, but he would always somehow manage to bring in a new batch who were just as good, and we'd do even better than the year before. Tactically we could be a bit one-dimensional at times, but his team was always fit, hard working and attack minded.

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Plus Points

  • Given time to build his own team, can be successful while playing passing-based attacking football.
  • Can motivate given the right players.
  • Will bring attention to the club and the area given his status and will also attract players.
  • Seems to have a good knowledge/contacts within the lower Football League and non-league.
  • He has charisma and can be a real showman.  I kinda miss his end of game away match routine.
  • Will get rid of deadwood, players not pulling their weight and he anyone he perceives as a threat to his 'I'm the boss' attitude, even if they're your better players or club legends.
  • Will attempt to talk the club, the area and the fans up as much as possible.
  • Can work well on a tight budget.

Negative Points

  • Rules with an iron fist.  Some players simply won't take to his tough love approach.
  • He's by no means a tactical maestro.  If his set-up/line-up/formation works, then he's fine.  If it's not working or a team have found a way to counteract it, he hasn't a clue what to do.
  • Hasn't a clue about substitutions and often makes them after the 85th minute, where they can make no impact at all.
  • Prior to building his own team, expect about two seasons of a long ball borefest.
  • Seems to have favourites, who he'll pick no-matter what.
  • His record without Maurice Malpas is very very poor.  If he can bring Malpas with him and/or Steve Marsella though, it might counteract this.
  • Doesn't take well to criticism at all.  Expect a few shouting matches with supporters.
  • Blows must win matches.
  • His record in England is appalling.  Brentford in particular was an absolute disaster.  His time in Australia at Sydney was also pretty poor.  Hibernian out did them all though!

Things to be wary of

 

As mentioned, Butcher will talk up the club and the area as much as possible but he doesn't mean it.  He can play the fans and the press like an piano and can come across as a lovely bloke in the press.  Behind the scenes though, it's a different story.  I saw a few times him act absolutely appallingly.  In short, he's not a nice man.  Expect him as well, as soon as a bigger job comes up as well, to be down the road to take over elsewhere as fast as you can spell Valley Parade.

 

As mentioned elsewhere, on the whole, Butcher was a good manager for ICT.  That doesn't change the fact though that his antics at the end were absolutely dreadful.  Turning up in the Hibs end and being introduced in hospitality as the 'new Hibs manager' said more about the man than any interview ever could and led to our former chairman David Sutherland to refer to him on TV as 'disgusting'!  Butcher felt he doing us a favour the whole and that we should be grateful for it (expect him to think of himself as the King of Newport).  

 

There was a time when Butcher could do no wrong, but he's got no-one to blame but himself.  He could've had a job here for life but the fact he threw it all away says it all.  If he does get the Newport job, get ready for either a big success (if given time) or a dreadful failure.  Be wary of him at all times though.  His ego's as big as Wembley.

Edited by Renegade
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Renegade has written Newport a very fair reference. Deep down Butcher compares himself with a Beckham or W Rooney in an England sense but managerially has been an abject failure with few exceptions. Raith have just sacked their Manager so it will be interesting to see if Maurice Malpass as DOF at that club now becomes Manager. Butcher's ego at Hibernian took them on an incredible downward spiral. Newport have ambitions to go in the opposite direction and it is a surprise that Butcher still believes he can man manage after the utter disaster he had in Edinburgh. David Cameron will give him a good reference. I have relatives in Newport so trust you make the right choice.

Edited by CELTIC1CALEY3

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Renegade provides an excellent lay person explanation of the professional formulation. Ther was much to admire about Terry Butcher. I really still think that he may destroy Newport though.

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If you research the ButcherWatch thread from a year ago you will probably notice that most fans wanted Butcher to stay and could not believe he wanted to leave

us but it was eventually about money and potential success & glory. We soon turned against him even before he left.

What would Newport be able to offer him?

A fresh start in English football with a side that came close to league two playoffs so foundations there

What standard do you think league two football would be in Scottish leagues

 

This is a question which we often ask ourselves in reverse. The present state of Scottish Football is dreadful and getting worse as the EPL and lower leagues get richer.

 

As far as playing standards go I think the teams at the bottom of the SPL are as poor as English League 2. We have had players from League 2 who haven't been good enough and even some from Lge 1 who weren't.

 

The real argument is about size of club. If Scottish clubs were able to access the same sponsorship as down south, I think we would have:

2 Premiership clubs (no prizes for guessing)

3 Championship clubs (Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen)

Some lge 1 clubs (Dundee Utd, poss Motherwell, Dundee, Killie)

Some lge 2 clubs (Ourselves, St Mirren, County, Falkirk, St Johnstone etc)

 

It's distorted all to hell in this country which has too many clubs. The bigot brothers are far bigger clubs than the likes of Hull, etc who get into the Premiership and get more dosh just from telly than any of them can raise. But because the two of them are there, the rest of us just wither.

 

However you could argue we reach a higher standard playing against the OF just as they always argue that their weak league holds them back.

They also argue that the likes of Chelsea are not big clubs, they're just rich clubs.

What was your question again  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

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What standard do you think league two football would be in Scottish leagues

 

You'd get a 1-1 draw away to Forfar Athletic.  (google them)

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I think some of the criticisms of him are harsh, probably stemming from bitterness over his departure.

 

 

To be honest, I don't sense there is much if any ongoing bitterness over his departure. We have moved on and moved on successfully since then.

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