Falling Standards?

[Joonya]

I just read on BBC website that David Moyes thinks standards in scottish football have fallen, hence the reason teams such as celtic struggle to get a top manager.

Now, these comments have only come to light since RC beat Celtic in the cup semi. But are standards falling, or has the rest of the scottish game caught up?

[EWS]

I think it is quite clear that standards have fallen within Rangers and Celtics. They are no longer able to entice the Larrsons, Laudrops and Gascoignes to Scotland on ridiculous wages. In addition, teams are more willing to pay over the odds for foreign players, rather then using the talent from the country, and the younger players therefore expect big bucks in return.

Rangers and Celtic haven't helped themselves, with their attitude to the rest of Scotland and hopefully all will change. Scotland is a small league now, we should be restructuring as such.

[FoolPhysio]

Totally agree EWS - and if that restructering included the OF moving away into their fantasy Atlantic league or whatever, then it would probably bring our standards back up further and quicker for those of us "left behind".

[DornochCaley]

Scotland needs atleast 2 strong teams. Which is usually Celtic and Rangers. Look what has happened lately. Both did pish poor is Europe, and now Scotland have fell down the Fifa points and Scottish football is in a dire state, looking from the outside. We need it restructured so that all the other teams catch Celtic and Rangers up because they are getting better. Not Celtic and Rangers getting worse.

[CELTIC1CALEY3]

No - Ross County's standards have risen and the millionaires of the game - Moyes included - do not like upstart challenges. Ross County were an absolute credit to the Highlands and the First Division.

It has been a poor season for Scotland in Europe but perhaps as many as 75% of the country hope Dundee United finish second in the league and wake the old firm up. Rangers with ?30m of debt should be a club being challenged next year.

Perhaps marginal equalisation was the phrase Moyes meant.

[Joonya]

I'm not so sure the standards have fallan, but then again I'm not convinced the lesser teams have improved overly either.

Personally, I think we're in a 'stall' and need a bump start.

European leagues have raised their game and scottish football standards stalled when the SPL introduced the Split. the only way to kick start it again is to get rid of it (the split) and expand the top league to 18 and give us back football. By that i mean slack off the rediculous rules such as stadium minimum capacity, terracing (to a degree) and standing during games etc. The league would have more challengers and a better appeal IMHO.

Playing teams 4 times a season is just dull!!!

[Yngwie]

They are no longer able to entice the Larrsons, Laudrops and Gascoignes

How can you say that when they have the likes of Lafferty and Fortune?

[Renegade]

IMO the whole attitude to the game here is wrong. A defence mindset from the outset, along with frequent long ball tactics do this country no favours whatsoever. Look at what the Dutch do, from the very beginning with the youth teams they teach to play an attacking style, along with the use of the 4-3-3 formation. Our approach seems to be "don't get beat". Obviously this country will never be able to attract the players capable of constructing world beating teams (with the odd excepton in the past, Celtic in the 1960s being a prime example), but the game itself up here is, well, boring. Look at the football teams like Arsenal, teams like Barcelona, teams like Manchester United. Fantastic football, and a winning mentality. These teams go out and play a style that is not just effective, but entertaining. The attitude often displayed in Scotland is "Winning is what is important, not the performance". Well, tell that Johan Cryuff, Pep Guardiola and Rinus Michels.

Why can't we, in this country start from the very beginning of the footballing levels, making it compulsory (as is beginning to be the case in some countries) that teams play a style of football that is attack minded? Obviously, we will never be able to attract a team of global superstars, but our attitude towards the game here, doesn't do anything to help create our own, or to help create a better style of football. If Scottish football doesn't change soon, and continues heading down the same track it is now, then it is quite simply doomed.

[Yngwie]

I think the dismal performances in Europe in the last couple of seasons answer the question. I heard we are now about the 30th strongest league in terms of European results.

The high point for Scotland was probably the years when Celtic were regularly beating the likes of Barcelona and Liverpool - and losing to ICT days later.

[Sorted]

Scottish football is probably at it's lowest point in my lifetime.

The lack of our nationality playing in top leagues (forget the EPL we used to have people in the La Liga and Seri A), the level of performance delivered by our European representatives and the abject failure of our national team are three very legitimate benchmarks with which to measure our "success".

Watching the quality of fare delivered by our so called elite cause despair. Anyone watch the two SPL games this week? Shocking, absolutely shocking.

No idea what the solution is, but know that one will not be found as long as the anally challenged drongos that are responsible for the delivery of our national game remain in post. In pure Comical Ali style they remain devoted to telling us that everything in the garden is rosy, the world really is flat, Elvis isn't dead..........

Edited April 15, 2010 by Sorted

[PullMyFinger]

Scottish football is probably at it's lowest point in my lifetime.

The lack of our nationality playing in top leagues (forget the EPL we used to have people in the La Liga and Seri A), the level of performance delivered by our European representatives and the abject failure of our national team are three very legitimate benchmarks with which to measure our "success".

Watching the quality of fare delivered by our so called elite cause despair. Anyone watch the two SPL games this week? Shocking, absolutely shocking.

No idea what the solution is, but know that one will not be found as long as the anally challenged drongos that are responsible for the delivery of our national game remain in post. In pure Comical Ali style they remain devoted to telling us that everything in the garden is rosy, the world really is flat, Elvis isn't dead..........

I think an expanded league will shake things up a bit with more teams having a go at the bigger teams and trying to win rather than not lose. SPL quality players having to play Division 1 football? I believe it will work.

[starchief]

Lots of distinctly average foreign players in the top two teams, especially Celtic. Fortune, Hinkel, Samaras etc - an absolute fortune (pardon the pun) wasted. For a fraction, they could have brought in the likes of Cowie, McArthur, Arfield etc and developed a team that would have lasted for years.

[DALNEIGHCALEY]

Standards of stadiums, pitches, facilities, fitness, coaching, and professionalism have improved hugely. Try watching some old highlights of Scottish football in the 1980s and early 90s, it was horrendous.

Nonsense absolute nonsense .

[Harry Chibber]

IMO the whole attitude to the game here is wrong. A defence mindset from the outset, along with frequent long ball tactics do this country no favours whatsoever. Look at what the Dutch do, from the very beginning with the youth teams they teach to play an attacking style, along with the use of the 4-3-3 formation. Our approach seems to be "don't get beat". Obviously this country will never be able to attract the players capable of constructing world beating teams (with the odd excepton in the past, Celtic in the 1960s being a prime example), but the game itself up here is, well, boring. Look at the football teams like Arsenal, teams like Barcelona, teams like Manchester United. Fantastic football, and a winning mentality. These teams go out and play a style that is not just effective, but entertaining. The attitude often displayed in Scotland is "Winning is what is important, not the performance". Well, tell that Johan Cryuff, Pep Guardiola and Rinus Michels.

Why can't we, in this country start from the very beginning of the footballing levels, making it compulsory (as is beginning to be the case in some countries) that teams play a style of football that is attack minded? Obviously, we will never be able to attract a team of global superstars, but our attitude towards the game here, doesn't do anything to help create our own, or to help create a better style of football. If Scottish football doesn't change soon, and continues heading down the same track it is now, then it is quite simply doomed.

Have you tried watching dutch football?? Next to the SPL the Eredivisie is one of the poorest leagues in Europe... ffs Steve McLaren is on the verge of winning the title there with FC Twente :025:

Our football's got no worse, if Mowbray hadn't made a c*ck up of the money Celtic gave him then we don't even have this conversation. Robbie Keane is playing for celtic, which is just as, if not more impressive than Gascoigne or Laudrup.... and Larsson wasn't bought at his peak he was picked up from some 2nd rate swedish team for peanuts.

I think the best way to gauge our league is by looking at the players that have been bought by the EPL and compete on a regular basis...

Gordon (Sunderland)

Hutton (Sunderland)

McFadden (Birmingham)

Ferguson (Birmingham)

O'Connor (Birmingham)

Berra (Wolves)

Fletcher (Burnley)

not to mention the likes of Dorrans and Adams in the Championship

...stick them back into the SPL and we make it a much more competitve league.

We are still producing the same talent but we don't have the money to compete with the likes of Championship clubs so they are leaving Scotland early.

There definitely has to be changes to the division though, at the moment with such a small division and only 1 promotion spot from the first division the bottom 6 sides are playing with a constant fear of relegation because they have such a limited oppertunity to get back... you only need to look around us at Dundee, Dunfermline & Partick. It's a win or die attitude from the first game of the season which leaves no space to try and play football...

if the SPL is increased and the promotion places increased then you would have more variety in managers, players and most of all standard in football

[PullMyFinger]

Excellent post Harry. Spot on. :025:

[Yngwie]

Larsson wasn't bought at his peak he was picked up from some 2nd rate swedish team for peanuts.

It was Feyenoord, but the ?650,000 paid was certainly one of the bargains of the century.

[Harry Chibber]

Larsson wasn't bought at his peak he was picked up from some 2nd rate swedish team for peanuts.

It was Feyenoord, but the ?650,000 paid was certainly one of the bargains of the century.

FFS!!! So close to having a factually correct post.... where's that knife?

[Sorted]

IMO the whole attitude to the game here is wrong. A defence mindset from the outset, along with frequent long ball tactics do this country no favours whatsoever. Look at what the Dutch do, from the very beginning with the youth teams they teach to play an attacking style, along with the use of the 4-3-3 formation. Our approach seems to be "don't get beat". Obviously this country will never be able to attract the players capable of constructing world beating teams (with the odd excepton in the past, Celtic in the 1960s being a prime example), but the game itself up here is, well, boring. Look at the football teams like Arsenal, teams like Barcelona, teams like Manchester United. Fantastic football, and a winning mentality. These teams go out and play a style that is not just effective, but entertaining. The attitude often displayed in Scotland is "Winning is what is important, not the performance". Well, tell that Johan Cryuff, Pep Guardiola and Rinus Michels.

Why can't we, in this country start from the very beginning of the footballing levels, making it compulsory (as is beginning to be the case in some countries) that teams play a style of football that is attack minded? Obviously, we will never be able to attract a team of global superstars, but our attitude towards the game here, doesn't do anything to help create our own, or to help create a better style of football. If Scottish football doesn't change soon, and continues heading down the same track it is now, then it is quite simply doomed.

Have you tried watching dutch football?? Next to the SPL the Eredivisie is one of the poorest leagues in Europe... ffs Steve McLaren is on the verge of winning the title there with FC Twente

Our football's got no worse, if Mowbray hadn't made a c*ck up of the money Celtic gave him then we don't even have this conversation. Robbie Keane is playing for celtic, which is just as, if not more impressive than Gascoigne or Laudrup.... and Larsson wasn't bought at his peak he was picked up from some 2nd rate swedish team for peanuts.

I think the best way to gauge our league is by looking at the players that have been bought by the EPL and compete on a regular basis...

Gordon (Sunderland)

Hutton (Sunderland)

McFadden (Birmingham)

Ferguson (Birmingham)

O'Connor (Birmingham)

Berra (Wolves)

Fletcher (Burnley)

not to mention the likes of Dorrans and Adams in the Championship

...stick them back into the SPL and we make it a much more competitve league.

We are still producing the same talent but we don't have the money to compete with the likes of Championship clubs so they are leaving Scotland early.

There definitely has to be changes to the division though, at the moment with such a small division and only 1 promotion spot from the first division the bottom 6 sides are playing with a constant fear of relegation because they have such a limited oppertunity to get back... you only need to look around us at Dundee, Dunfermline & Partick. It's a win or die attitude from the first game of the season which leaves no space to try and play football...

if the SPL is increased and the promotion places increased then you would have more variety in managers, players and most of all standard in football

The players you list performing in the EPL are very average journeymen in real terms (Gordon the possible exception). Going back, not too far in time, the spine of the great Liverpool team (Hansen, Souness and Dalglish), Man Utd (Jordan, MacQueen, Albiston, Buchan), Leeds (Harvey, Eddie Gray, Frank Gray, Bremner, Lorimer and Jordan), Notts Forest (McGovern, Burns and Robertson) and no doubt many others in many teams. We are now delighted to talk about players in "The Championship" which is (no matter how you flower it up or rebrand it) the old English Division Two.

Bottom line is that Scottish activity in English Division One (proper name) is limited at best. Three guys at an over performing Birmingham City and the rest in teams in the bottom six/eight.

This bares absolutely no comparison with the huge Scottish contingents that dominated the top English teams of the 70s and 80s. We even had Stevie Archibald at Barca, idolised in a fashion his replacement Gary Lineker could only dream of. Add to that Jordan's spell at the San Siro, John Collins in Monaco, Eric Black at Metz, Mark McGee at Hamburg, Mo Johnston at Nates even Brewster at Ionikos. Where is our prescence how? Second Division of the Finnish league or Cyprus?

I think we have a huge problem and don't know what the solution is.

Ban computer games!

[Harry Chibber]

The players you list performing in the EPL are very average journeymen in real terms (Gordon the possible exception). Going back, not too far in time, the spine of the great Liverpool team (Hansen, Souness and Dalglish), Man Utd (Jordan, MacQueen, Albiston, Buchan), Leeds (Harvey, Eddie Gray, Frank Gray, Bremner, Lorimer and Jordan), Notts Forest (McGovern, Burns and Robertson) and no doubt many others in many teams. We are now delighted to talk about players in "The Championship" which is (no matter how you flower it up or rebrand it) the old English Division Two.

Bottom line is that Scottish activity in English Division One (proper name) is limited at best. Three guys at an over performing Birmingham City and the rest in teams in the bottom six/eight.

This bares absolutely no comparison with the huge Scottish contingents that dominated the top English teams of the 70s and 80s. We even had Stevie Archibald at Barca, idolised in a fashion his replacement Gary Lineker could only dream of. Add to that Jordan's spell at the San Siro, John Collins in Monaco, Eric Black at Metz, Mark McGee at Hamburg, Mo Johnston at Nates even Brewster at Ionikos. Where is our prescence how? Second Division of the Finnish league or Cyprus?

I think we have a huge problem and don't know what the solution is.

Ban computer games!

I wasn't alive for any of that.. but take your point.

[Kirishima]

No progress will be made til the voting is sorted out Votes currently need 10 for to pass, any less, it doesn't pass (i may be wrong on this...)

So a 16-team league would be opposed by Dundee Utd, Celtic and Rangers, Hibs, Hearts, and Motherwell. Simply because they would lose money from not playing OF as much. The other teams usually at the relegation end would welcome it for obvious reasons...

Probably 80 per cent of fans would support it, however, it is probably unlikely to pass under SPLvoting rules.

Thw whole football hierarchy needs changed, especially at SFA level.

Edited April 15, 2010 by Kirishima

[FoolPhysio]

No progress will be made til the voting is sorted out Votes currently need 10 for to pass, any less, it doesn't pass (i may be wrong on this...)

So a 16-team league would be opposed by Dundee Utd, Celtic and Rangers, Hibs, Hearts, and Motherwell. Simply because they would lose money from not playing OF as much. The other teams usually at the relegation end would welcome it for obvious reasons...

Probably 80 per cent of fans would support it, however, it is probably unlikely to pass under SPLvoting rules.

Thw whole football hierarchy needs changed, especially at SFA level.

Totally agree - vested interests, all purely commercial and not related to the entertainment aspect of the sport.

What will be interesting over the next year or so is how the economic downturn will expose and accelerate the self-combustion of the unsustainalbe cost of the EPL and the effect that will have both South and North of the Border.

Football needs to get back to the core values. The focus has been on money for too long and the fact is that money paid out has far exceeded money coming in and that cannot last. ICT were fairly enlightened on that aspect with the wage cap but in the end even our Board was seduced by the glitter of (future) gold that never materialised and we are yet to pay the full price of that one.

The thread on Missing the SPL? is relates directly to this one - money hasn't made it better, and it isn't the answer either. But in the end, for the sake of revenue, ICT needs to be in the worse league for entertainment so it can make better money but how much will it cost us in real terms? Do we actually win out by being there at all?

[Sorted]

The players you list performing in the EPL are very average journeymen in real terms (Gordon the possible exception). Going back, not too far in time, the spine of the great Liverpool team (Hansen, Souness and Dalglish), Man Utd (Jordan, MacQueen, Albiston, Buchan), Leeds (Harvey, Eddie Gray, Frank Gray, Bremner, Lorimer and Jordan), Notts Forest (McGovern, Burns and Robertson) and no doubt many others in many teams. We are now delighted to talk about players in "The Championship" which is (no matter how you flower it up or rebrand it) the old English Division Two.

Bottom line is that Scottish activity in English Division One (proper name) is limited at best. Three guys at an over performing Birmingham City and the rest in teams in the bottom six/eight.

This bares absolutely no comparison with the huge Scottish contingents that dominated the top English teams of the 70s and 80s. We even had Stevie Archibald at Barca, idolised in a fashion his replacement Gary Lineker could only dream of. Add to that Jordan's spell at the San Siro, John Collins in Monaco, Eric Black at Metz, Mark McGee at Hamburg, Mo Johnston at Nates even Brewster at Ionikos. Where is our prescence how? Second Division of the Finnish league or Cyprus?

I think we have a huge problem and don't know what the solution is.

Ban computer games!

I wasn't alive for any of that.. but take your point.

I now feel very, very old !!

[starchief]

Pretty much agree with everything Sorted said besides one or two things (ok, three then!):

1) I think Hutton is a fantastic player. Redknapp wanted a more defensive defence, which is why both Hutton and Bale struggled to get a game. Had he stayed, I think Hutton and Bale would have made a great pair of flying full-backs.

2) Barry Ferguson did very well at Blackburn, came back and was the best player under PLG (which is why he stayed and PLG didn't), then dragged a very poor Rangers team to a Euro final. He didn't come back from injury straight away, so was derided by the Rangers fans. Always was and still is a top class midfielder (maybe not Souness class but better than Lorimer or McGovern IMHO).

(yeah, I know certain posters will accuse me of being Rangers - not true, just my honest opinion)

3) I don't think it is computer games. There the world over but there's not a world football decline. For me:

- There's a lack of both street football and indoor facilities through fear of child-cnatchers and urban development.

- The Old Firm constantly talking about how bad the SPL is doesn't make it attractive. That didn't happen 20/30 years ago.

- Football - even for meaningless fixtures - is too expensive for people. How can a club justify asking a family of four to spend over ?50 to sit in the cold and watch a meaningless game.

Summer football could greatly improve the game. It's new, exciting, will get more media coverage when English footie isn't on, loan players from the EPL would add extra excitement, kids could see a match then play without risking hypothermia (we woz harder back in them olden days) or needing floodlights (small boys in the park, jumpers for goalposts, enduring image, isn't it?).

[Renegade]

Have you tried watching dutch football?? Next to the SPL the Eredivisie is one of the poorest leagues in Europe... ffs Steve McLaren is on the verge of winning the title there with FC Twente :D

That wasn't really what I meant, I was more acknowledging their different ideology towards the game, rather than the standard of their league. The Spanish league has a same sort of ideology by the way, and is also on the whole, a better quality.

[+DoofersDad]

The players you list performing in the EPL are very average journeymen in real terms (Gordon the possible exception). Going back, not too far in time, the spine of the great Liverpool team (Hansen, Souness and Dalglish), Man Utd (Jordan, MacQueen, Albiston, Buchan), Leeds (Harvey, Eddie Gray, Frank Gray, Bremner, Lorimer and Jordan), Notts Forest (McGovern, Burns and Robertson) and no doubt many others in many teams. We are now delighted to talk about players in "The Championship" which is (no matter how you flower it up or rebrand it) the old English Division Two.

Bottom line is that Scottish activity in English Division One (proper name) is limited at best. Three guys at an over performing Birmingham City and the rest in teams in the bottom six/eight.

This bares absolutely no comparison with the huge Scottish contingents that dominated the top English teams of the 70s and 80s. We even had Stevie Archibald at Barca, idolised in a fashion his replacement Gary Lineker could only dream of. Add to that Jordan's spell at the San Siro, John Collins in Monaco, Eric Black at Metz, Mark McGee at Hamburg, Mo Johnston at Nates even Brewster at Ionikos. Where is our prescence how? Second Division of the Finnish league or Cyprus?

I think we have a huge problem and don't know what the solution is.

Ban computer games!

You make a fair put and mention some great players there. But another relevant point is that the English top flight is now dominated by the best players from around the world. That was not the case in the 70s and 80s and therefore the best Scottish players were able to compete for places in the top English teams. The likes of Dalgleish and Bremner would have held their own against anybody but many of the others you mention would have struggled in today's Premier Division.