Crowds and pricing

[Heilandee]

Interesting article on German football and their pricing structures to gain larger crowds

Bundesliga sucess story

Also,closer to home DEE4LIFE have come up with a proposal aimed at encouraging travelling support,whats folks thoughts on it?

DEE4LIFE proposal

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Interesting article on German football and their pricing structures to gain larger crowds

Bundesliga sucess story

Also,closer to home DEE4LIFE have come up with a proposal aimed at encouraging travelling support,whats folks thoughts on it?

DEE4LIFE proposal

It want let me enter the Dungdee article - but they have found a great way to encourage support - winning and top of the league !!

[caleykid1994]

Well if i owned ICT, i was going to build the 4th stand(about 2,000-2,500 seats) and move the family section into it. Then start the family season tickets and ONLY families could go into that stand and charge ?10 everywhere else. i bet you we would get 10,000-11,000 pretty much every home game.

Oh and numbers permitting, id actually segregate the south sound as SFA rules state that a home club must give the away team an allocation of atleast 10%(10% of 10,000 is 1,000) so there would be only 1,000 away tickets available. Good idea for when you have the old firm up here for cup games. Oh and thats another thing that unless the old firm drop this 5% thing, then id actually sell the away allocation to their Inverness based fans group(ie For Rangers id sell them to the True Blues) atleast then if they wanted to continue the idea they pretty much police themselves. Brilliant idea on paper though!

[RiG]

Well if i owned ICT, i was going to build the 4th stand(about 2,000-2,500 seats) and move the family section into it. Then start the family season tickets and ONLY families could go into that stand and charge ?10 everywhere else. i bet you we would get 10,000-11,000 pretty much every home game.

I bet you we wouldn't and that the club would soon be on the verge of going bust.

Still, your enthusiasm is to be admired

[caleykid1994]

Well if i owned ICT, i was going to build the 4th stand(about 2,000-2,500 seats) and move the family section into it. Then start the family season tickets and ONLY families could go into that stand and charge ?10 everywhere else. i bet you we would get 10,000-11,000 pretty much every home game.

I bet you we wouldn't and that the club would soon be on the verge of going bust.

Still, your enthusiasm is to be admired

Doubt it?

Say with the family stand that even primary and high school kids can go there(even without an adult with them), let them in for a quid at least you will make ?2,500 on the day just from ticket sales because lets face it, that stand would be sold out every game. If these kids want to go to the north/south or even the main stand then they pay the ?10 for a seat.

ICt's average home attendence is roughly abut the 3,000 mark(give or take a few hundred either side). At ?14 quid, they are only making ?30k-?40k(minusing the season ticket holders). So with this idea ICT only need to have an extra 2,000 fans inside the stadium to be making the same they would right now, and thats just under half the actual capacity.

[RiG]

Do you honestly think you could get 10,000 - 11,000 fans, approximately 1/6 th of the population of Inverness and the surrounding area to come along and watch the team play the likes of Airdrie and Raith Rovers?

Minusing

[Johnboy]

Isn't the DEE4LIFE what generally happens just now anyway?

[Alex MacLeod]

Well if i owned ICT, i was going to build the 4th stand(about 2,000-2,500 seats) and move the family section into it. Then start the family season tickets and ONLY families could go into that stand and charge ?10 everywhere else. i bet you we would get 10,000-11,000 pretty much every home game.

I bet you we wouldn't and that the club would soon be on the verge of going bust.

Still, your enthusiasm is to be admired :)

Doubt it?

Say with the family stand that even primary and high school kids can go there(even without an adult with them), let them in for a quid at least you will make ?2,500 on the day just from ticket sales because lets face it, that stand would be sold out every game. If these kids want to go to the north/south or even the main stand then they pay the ?10 for a seat.

ICt's average home attendence is roughly abut the 3,000 mark(give or take a few hundred either side). At ?14 quid, they are only making ?30k-?40k(minusing the season ticket holders). So with this idea ICT only need to have an extra 2,000 fans inside the stadium to be making the same they would right now, and thats just under half the actual capacity.

So you fill the stand with 2000 kids at a quid. Cost of stewarding and policing this area probably in excess of half the takings. Depreciation costs of your stand likely to be around a hundred times the remainder. I see serious losses in your scheme. five years to bankrupcy.

[SMEE]

I maintain.... even at first Division prices...the product is overpriced. Hence the p1ss poor attendances. be interesting to hear what people think would be a realistic price for Div I games. I cant see why ?10 (regardless of where you sit) isnt a fair price.

Why is it we get ripped off left, right and centre here in the uk. From Income Tax to Road tax to Tv Licence. We just do not get value for money

[Heilandee]

Isn't the DEE4LIFE what generally happens just now anyway?

No,currently the home team has no way to encourage or market games to the away support,under this proposal a figure is agreed between the clubs for the use of the stand by the away team based on average figures,away team can then market and sell tickets for that stand.Anything above the agreed figure is there's to keep and therefore the have an incentive to encourage supporters to travel,better away suports = better atmosphere=home fans enjoy the match day more=increased revenue through food an prog sales etc etc.

edit to say, i agree SMEE, pricing around ?5 for 3rd div,?7.50 for 2nd, tenner for first and price is for entry to the ground.

Edited December 6, 2009 by Heilandee

[SMEE]

Am i right in thinking, from a pic that was recently posted on here, of Strathspey thistles gorund...that they charge ?8 to get in? Thats scandalous!

[CaleyD]

I like the suggestion put forward by Dee4Life and I believe the potential pitfalls are more than outweighed by the potential for the scheme to improve travelling support. If the away club could double it's travelling support then it could effectively offer free travel under such a scheme....just the incentive needed to get the increased support to make it all work.

In regards some other comments on reducing ticket prices.....

The problem is that you have a stadium/pitch which is used 20 to 25 days out of 365 and although you can/should be paying lower player wages in the lower leagues the stadium costs don't reduce and you still need X amount to run the club.

In order to reduce league ticket price by ?5 you then have to find a way to increase annual revenue by ?315,000 (based on an average 3500 crowd). You can argue that a reduced price would increase the average attendance, but it would need to increase by 1750 to reach break even on current situation.....that's not taking account of the extra cost for increased stewarding/policing etc.

The risk is too high for clubs to make the first move, and although they might realise the desired effect in the long term, clubs...just about all clubs, work with very short term financial models due to the nature of the business.

It's schemes such as that being suggested by Dee4Life which help drive up attendances in the first place. Once you start driving up attendances then clubs can start looking at decreasing ticket prices as the risk to them has been reduced.

[caleykid1994]

Do you honestly think you could get 10,000 - 11,000 fans, approximately 1/6 th of the population of Inverness and the surrounding area to come along and watch the team play the likes of Airdrie and Raith Rovers?

At ?10 and ?1, yes

County get around 2,000-2,500 average(Dingwall is only what 6,000 or about). There is a German club(Hoffenheim i think) who play in the Bundesliga and attract around 40,000+ every home game yet they play in a village which has a population of 10,000? How?

Anyway you need to think more of it as a youth academy. When you have your teenagers(ie15 and 16 year olds in this case) they would have to buy a seat in either stand for a tenner. Then the next lot of youngsters can come into my proposed family stand. You would also take on board the amount of fans who (inevitably) stop coming to watch the games. Supply and demand people. if its over subscribing each week consistantly, then fill in one of the corners. If not then bide it out til it does. I have always maintained that a full stadium would get the most out of the team. Would the team rather see a stadium which is a 3rd full each week(like it is now and declining) or would they rather see a full stadium with all generations supporting them week in, week out???

And on CaleyD's point on stewarding. What stewarding??? At home just now there is 3 stewards to the entire North Stand with the occasional "team leader" walking by. I dont know what it is for the main stand so say its 6? So hiring another 6 for another stand cant be that expensive can it?

Minusing :023:

That would be "taking away" or "subtracting" to you older folks. :D

[RiG]

At ?10 and ?1, yes

And how long could that business model keep the club afloat?

County get around 2,000-2,500 average(Dingwall is only what 6,000 or about).

Not all County fans come from Dingwall. You do know this right?

There is a German club(Hoffenheim i think) who play in the Bundesliga and attract around 40,000+ every home game yet they play in a village which has a population of 10,000? How?

That is a very good question particularly given that their stadium only holds 30,000 so getting 40,000 crammed into it is some achievment indeed. Hoffenhiem is a subaurb of a German city so I would guess a number of fans come from that area as well. Especially given that the team is 1) doing so well and 2) is well backed financially. That too will attract lots of fans. Look at the crowds Livi would get for example when they were flying high. You won't get the same crowds at ICT solely based on cheap tickets. There are a number of mitigating factors that contribute to high / low attedances.

Supply and demand people. if its over subscribing each week consistantly, then fill in one of the corners. If not then bide it out til it does.

You're changing your stance on this. You earlier said that you would get 10,000 - 11,000 fans along each week for the likes of Raith Rovers and Airdrie. Now it might fluctuate somewhat?

I have always maintained that a full stadium would get the most out of the team. Would the team rather see a stadium which is a 3rd full each week(like it is now and declining) or would they rather see a full stadium with all generations supporting them week in, week out???

Something of a rhetorical question that. It's pretty obvious what they would rather have but it doesn't prove (nor disprove) your point.

That would be "taking away" or "subtracting" to you older folks. :D

I'm only five years older than you you cheeky git! :023: The word you were looking for was minus ;)

Edited December 7, 2009 by RiG

[caleykid1994]

At ?10 and ?1, yes

And how long could that business model keep the club afloat?

County get around 2,000-2,500 average(Dingwall is only what 6,000 or about).

Not all County fans come from Dingwall. You do know this right?

There is a German club(Hoffenheim i think) who play in the Bundesliga and attract around 40,000+ every home game yet they play in a village which has a population of 10,000? How?

That is a very good question particularly given that their stadium only holds 30,000 so getting 40,000 crammed into it is some achievment indeed. Hoffenhiem is a subaurb of a German city so I would guess a number of fans come from that area as well. Especially given that the team is 1) doing so well and 2) is well backed financially. That too will attract lots of fans. Look at the crowds Livi would get for example when they were flying high. You won't get the same crowds at ICT solely based on cheap tickets. There are a number of mitigating factors that contribute to high / low attedances.

Supply and demand people. if its over subscribing each week consistantly, then fill in one of the corners. If not then bide it out til it does.

You're changing your stance on this. You earlier said that you would get 10,000 - 11,000 fans along each week for the likes of Raith Rovers and Airdrie. Now it might fluctuate somewhat?

I have always maintained that a full stadium would get the most out of the team. Would the team rather see a stadium which is a 3rd full each week(like it is now and declining) or would they rather see a full stadium with all generations supporting them week in, week out???

Something of a rhetorical question that. It's pretty obvious what they would rather have but it doesn't prove (nor disprove) your point.

That would be "taking away" or "subtracting" to you older folks.

I'm only five years older than you you cheeky git! The word you were looking for was minus ;)

Right i'll go through this from the top quote

1) You would be surprised how long you would actually be able to sustain it

2) And not all Inverness Caledonian Thistle fans come from Inverness

3) I didnt bother to research this properly, all i knew is that there was some wee club in Germany that was doing well. I didnt go too far into researching it.

4) Ofcourse it will fluctuate with clubs whose fans dont travel too far(but thats not the main reason) but if this did turn the teams onfield performances round then the fans would turn up for those kind of games.

5) Yep, it is somewhat rhetorical but again you always hear about Celtic Park being a "fortress" on European nights(not so much now) but it would intimidate teams which will include the likes of Dundee, Partick etc. who come up here.

6) In the context of the sentence, "minusing" sounded better than just "minus".

[RiG]

1) I'm all ears. What evidence do you have to suggest the club would stay afloat under these plans?

2) Excellent. So you are disproving your point about potential high attendances for ICT based on the fact that County get 2,500 from a population of 6,000 so ICT could do similar.

3) It would seem so as it doesn't really back up your point at all I'm afraid.

4) I'm not talking about away fans. I'm talking about Home supporters turning up in numbers, supposedly, as high as 10,000 - 11,000 against bottom of the division dross.

5) Yes I agree with this but I can't see it happening.

6) It's not even a word as far as I am aware.

Edited December 7, 2009 by RiG

[Charles Bannerman]

Given an abundance of counter attractions (of which televised football is just one) plus the large number of fans in the local area of the Old Firm and other large clubs, I have a suspicion that to get the kind of numbers you are talking about ON A REGULAR BASIS to watch First Division (or even SPL) football in Inverness the prices would have to be SO low that the activity would become even more loss making than it is now.

The unfortunate fact about a great deal of full time professional football is that there is a fundamental imbalance between the wages paid and the fact that the men who receive them can only work profitably for an hour and a half a fortnight. (OK... no jokes about ICT's recent second halves!) The demand is not sufficient to sustain what is effectively economic lunacy. This is absolutely fundamental.

However it is perfectly understandable that the fans feel that paying approaching ?20 to watch this level of play for an hour and a half is a lot of money and would like to see that reduced. But I'm not convinced that price reduction would produce the necessary proportional increase in gates at this level of football. It is an unfortunate fact that, even at current prices, these are actually quite heavily subsidised by other activities.

In economic terms, I don't think football at this level has the right elasticity of demand for a drop in ticket prices to be compensated for by the necessary increase in attendances.

Edited December 7, 2009 by Charles Bannerman

[Heilandee]

I don't think anyone is naive enough to think if you halve the price of entry you will double the crowd,however it is plain for all to see, football as a spectator sport in Scotland is dyeing on it's erse.Those in charge need to start thinking outside the (penalty) box and of ways of increasing income in the longer term to make clubs more viable.I reckon the DEE4LIFE proposal is a start on the football front and worthy of consideration,but surely there are other ways of generating more income from seated arena's that stand dormant for most of their lives.

[dannydoo]

To be honest I think the pricing of tickets is the least of Scottish footballs worries. There is a reason why for example people grudge paying say ?18 per game at TCS for the Jock McDonald stand, its the fact that they pay such a hefty fee for poor football. ?18 quid to see your team get gubbed by village teams? Or ?18 to see your team play a good game against top flight teams? Which would you rather and which would be a more satisfying way of spending your money, seeing as how the atmosphere at present at TCS does not usually influence your experience of the game positively. I know that attendances will have a knock-on effect on income and in-turn quality of players, grounds etc. However there are better ways of increasing attendances without adjusting the prices. I personally think that the atmosphere at games whether home or away play a massive part in crowd satisfaction and attendance. I would quite happily pay up to say ?30 a game (maybe I have too much dispensible income) if I had a great time at games whether we were winning or losing and that seems to be a major part of the Bundesliga's members games. Also staying within Scottish football, look at Dee4Life, why is there not a trust of similar quality and influence in the club at this ICT? I think even something that rivalled Dee4Life would increase supporters appreciation of the club and in turn loyalty. Another main problem is the part-timer fan, somewhat hypocritical but I too am guilty of this, due to me being a lone Caley fan in my circle of friends, the problem is that they only turn up to the 'big' games and skip all the diddy games against the likes of Airdrie and co. Better atmosphere and they'll turn up no matter what the opposition. I'm not trying to imply that my opinion is flawless and may not work on its own but coupled with similar ideas and supported by the majority of clubs could change the game we know and for the most part love.

[12th Man]

The dee for life link appeared to be broken is this what you are discussing? http://www.dee4life.com/storage/Dee4Life%2...%20Revenues.pdf

Which means the away team leases the away stand for a premium price and then dictates what price to set for its away fans.

So for example if you were a multi millionaire you could hire an away stand fill it with all of your fans by only charging ?5 for adults and ?1 for kids to lift the team and pick up extra points.

I would try and bring up that one if I was mega rich,

[CaleyD]

Also staying within Scottish football, look at Dee4Life, why is there not a trust of similar quality and influence in the club at this ICT? I think even something that rivalled Dee4Life would increase supporters appreciation of the club and in turn loyalty.

A Trust can not build strength or influence without the support of the fans, and getting fans to unite under such a banner in this day and age is very difficult and generally only happens during times of crisis.

You look at all the most successful Trusts in the UK and they are all attached to clubs who have gone through major problems in the last 6 or 7 years.....they are also the clubs where fans are generally found to be more satisfied with how things operate.

More members = more recognition

More members = more influence

More members = more income

More members = more shares

More members = more satisfaction

Those of us who run the Supporters Trust can only do so much, if the fans of ICT want a "Better Quality" and "More Influential" Trust then they have to do their bit. They need to become members and they need to play a part in making the Trust bigger and better.

The Trust exists to be what it's members want it to be. As a member of the Trust it matters not a jot how old you are, what job you do or how much money you have...everyone is equal. The values that form the foundation of a Trust are exactly the values we want to see entolled on the clubs we are attached too.....but that can only happen if the fans pull together.

I'm not saying Trusts should exists to take over clubs, in some cases that is necessary, but there's plenty of examples of Trusts with little or no shareholding in their clubs who work to great effect alongside club owners/shareholders....and that's great. It also means that should the worst happen, then these Trusts are well positioned to give immediate and effective assistance in securing the clubs future, or dare I say it, it's existence.

[Heilandee]

The dee for life link appeared to be broken is this what you are discussing? http://www.dee4life.com/storage/Dee4Life%2...%20Revenues.pdf

Which means the away team leases the away stand for a premium price and then dictates what price to set for its away fans.

So for example if you were a multi millionaire you could hire an away stand fill it with all of your fans by only charging ?5 for adults and ?1 for kids to lift the team and pick up extra points.

I would try and bring up that one if I was mega rich,

Thats the link 12th man,no sure why it's no working as it's the same one.I don't see it as giving rich owners leverage to buy out the lease then give the seats away for next to nowt,but an opppertunity for ALL clubs, when away, to market these games to their own supporters.If it works everybody wins as the home teams get more than they would normally expect and the away team get extra support and better atmosphere.

[Heilandee]

You look at all the most successful Trusts in the UK and they are all attached to clubs who have gone through major problems in the last 6 or 7 years.....they are also the clubs where fans are generally found to be more satisfied with how things operate.

Agree with the first part of that D,but with regards to the second part, on the contrary,the more disatisfied and eager for change supporters are, the more likely they are to get involved and support the trust as a vehicle to get a say in the direction a club is heading

[CaleyD]

I perhaps should have been clearer....I meant fans tended to be more satisfied with how things operate after a crisis and a Supporters Trust gets more involved/influential.

[Djay]

HOPE every one"s recognised most our games this season have had the biggest attendance"s in the first divison