Europa League

[lukemackay]

This highlights the need for a 14 or more team SPL, without it Scotland out of Europe by August will be the norm instead of the exception.

sorted that one for you

[Tichy_Blacks_Back]

Group A: TOTTENHAM, Rubin Kazan, PAOK Salonika, SHAMROCK ROVERS

Group B: FC Copenhagen, Standard Liege, Hannover, Vorskla Poltava

Group C: PSV Eindhoven, Hapoel Tel-Aviv, Rapid Bucharest, Legia Warsaw

Group D: Sporting Lisbon, Lazio, FC Zurich, FC Vaslui

Group E: Dynamo Kiev, Besiktas, STOKE, Maccabi Tel-Aviv

Group F: Paris St Germain, Athletic Bilbao, Salzburg, Slovan Bratislava

Group G: AZ Alkmaar, Metalist Kharkiv, Austria Vienna, Malmo

Group H: Braga, Club Brugge, BIRMINGHAM, Maribor

Group I: Atletico Madrid, Udinese, Rennes, Sion

Group J: Schalke, Steaua Bucharest, Maccabi Haifa, AEK Larnaca

Group K: FC Twente, FULHAM, Odense, Wisla Krakow

Group L: Anderlecht, AEK Athens, Lokomotiv Moscow, Sturm Graz

[Tichy_Blacks_Back]

Celtic's appeal for reinstatement will be heard next week - a tough group if they do get back in....

[RiG]

Here's a mad idea - maybe Scottish teams aren't as good as some folk make out?

[+DoofersDad]

This highlights the need for a 10 team SPL, without it Scotland out of Europe by August will be the norm instead of the exception.

There were 18 teams in the old Scottish First Division when Celtic won the European Cup in 67 though you may be referring to the fact that there are only 10 teams in the League of Ireland Premier Division.

Shamrock Rovers' turnover is also less than 2% that of the Old Filth which helps to put the scale of the failure of the OF in perspective. Their failure diminshes Scottish Football and we will all suffer the consequences of that.

Interestingly Shamrock Rovers' leading scorer is a Scot called Twigg. It seems there is very little incentive for talented young Scots to ply their trade in Scotland these days. Let's hope the national team can restore a bit of pride and give the game the boost it so desparately needs.

[lukemackay]

Next season we are guaranteed 1 team in the champions league group stages 1 team will have a play off to get into the champions league and 3 teams will get the chance for a space in the Europa league group stage one if which will hopefully be us the futures bright

[Yngwie]

Aye but the season after that our league champions will have to go through 6 qualifying rounds just to get a place in the Intertoto.

[DALNEIGHCALEY]

Next season we are guaranteed 1 team in the champions league group stages 1 team will have a play off to get into the champions league and 3 teams will get the chance for a space in the Europa league group stage one if which will hopefully be us the futures bright

I keep reading this on forums but have as yet not had confirmation of any sources . Do you have a link to a page that would tell me about the Scottish champions going straight into the CL group stage ?

[Gabby]

This highlights the need for a 10 team SPL, without it Scotland out of Europe by August will be the norm instead of the exception.

There were 18 teams in the old Scottish First Division when Celtic won the European Cup in 67 though you may be referring to the fact that there are only 10 teams in the League of Ireland Premier Division.

Shamrock Rovers' turnover is also less than 2% that of the Old Filth which helps to put the scale of the failure of the OF in perspective. Their failure diminshes Scottish Football and we will all suffer the consequences of that.

Interestingly Shamrock Rovers' leading scorer is a Scot called Twigg. It seems there is very little incentive for talented young Scots to ply their trade in Scotland these days. Let's hope the national team can restore a bit of pride and give the game the boost it so desparately needs.

It's not the same game it was in 1967. TV money means that other leagues are able to develop and attract quality players. My point is, and always has been, that the small amount of money generated by Scottish football is spread way too thin. I am certainly not saying this so just Celtic and Rangers can compete in Europe. Would it not be good for Scottish football is Hearts and other SPL teams could be playing European football in December?

It is your last point that hits the nail on the head, there is no incentive for young Scots to ply their trade in Scotland and drastic changes are required before this will change.

[Tichy_Blacks_Back]

Celtic are back in Europe - for now....

[CaleyD]

Three very interesting and thought provoking articles I have read recently.

The first one talks about the "Myth" that a 10 team league would mean more success in Europe...

http://changingscottishfootball.wordpress.com/2011/08/29/no-ten-team-euro-fix/

The second talks about the problems being more fundamental...

http://changingscottishfootball.wordpress.com/2011/08/30/not-just-a-numbers-game/

This third gives a very interesting suggestion on how things could be improved domestically, and meet some of the requirements suggested in the second article...

http://changingscottishfootball.wordpress.com/2011/08/26/after-the-deluge-what/

[Council Juice]

I dont see at all how changing the teams to less with make our teams better in Europe. Only one team made any real dent on Europe in the 90s in the old Scottish Premier and that was Rangers in '93. Since then yes, the Likes of Rangers and Celtic had runs in Europe to the final and Aberdeen got out a decent group to only go out to a star studded Bayern Munich side but more often than not, most of our teams are out of Europe by August usually anyway. Occasionally the Old Firm have the forlorn hope of staying in "after christmas" but it's maybe happened half a dozen times in 20 years. Outwith that we're nearly always nearly men at best in Europe or abject. This year was no different.

Making the league down to 10 just means you have to play a team at least 4 times a season for definite (which they ridiculed last season with Rangers and Celtic playing each other 7 times) so that just brings in stagnantation.

10 teams and more chance of relegation (play offs brought in) means more fear and teams afraid to rely on youth products. It's only in the last 5 years that we have finally come to terms that teams need youth development to survive. Lets not go back the way.

We had this 10 years ago. It wasn't working so we changed it. Why on earth would we go back to a failed model? (Other than less teams = bigger split of tv money. Only logical explanation why teams support it.)

16 teams, 30 games and a 2 legged super cup competion at the start of the season. for League and cup winners (or runners up in league if league winners won cup) @ Hampden. 2 teams go down guaranteed. 1 team enters into a play off with the 1st division play off winners. Winner is in the SPL next season. 1st Division top 2 teams come up automatically, next 2 play each other to determine 1st division play of winners who then play 3rd bottom SPL team.

This will take place between March and November (when European football finishes). During World and European championships the league would start 2 weeks earlier and finish a 2 weeks later due to high unlikelyhood of any of our players reaching latter stages anyway. The league would pause for the duration of the tournament. Teams would make their own arrangements with players as to whether they require time off (they shouldnt as their in the middle of a league season)

Stadium criteria - As we probably only have 16 teams with 6000 all seater stadium we change the rule to focus soley on the all seater aspect and that the facilities in terms of toilets, food stalls, emergency exits etc all pass stringent criteria. All teams promoted will get 1 year to comply with the rules (with groundshare in use until so). If stadium is completed within the year they can resort to their own stadium providing groundshare agreement allows and there is no objection through police or security. Teams would maybe have to give a fortnights grace before next home game to allow fans to amend travel arrangements.

The footballing authorities are so focussed on this tosh Mcleish report that does naught but state the bloomin obvious in some places and spraff a load of codswallap in others. I think we've seen in recent years that trusting a politician to sort something out (ie parliament building, Trams etc) is not the best way to go about something.

I await the day the Scottish footballing authorities see sense and give me the job. I've made it known on a popular fans website I'd look at it if approached so they now have no reason to not do so. Thankyou and good morning!

[starchief]

10, 12, 16, 20 or a 100 team league wouldn't make much difference I fear. It's completely and 100% to do with wealth distribution. The 80s were a terrific period for Scottish football, despite the ten-team league. Neither Celtic nor Rangers had ridiculously more money (significantly more but still within reason), so there were opportunities to get ahead with a good manager. Clubs could spend the odd quarter of a million here and there. I don't think Scotland's third team in Hearts have spent a penny on any player they've brought in.

At the same time, finances were such that a player would never consider a move from Hibs to Preston as a step up. Youngsters would stick around and develop their skills alongside seasoned-pros. When the best players did go, it would be to a top club, not the old Second Division or lower. Now, they'll up sticks at the first possibility to sit on the bench at a Championship club, never becoming the player they should be and leaving the SPL far weaker.

The solution? Probably a British league but there's no chance of that happening. Fans would never accept that for a start, never mind UEFA (I'd quite enjoy it myself). The only other solution I can see is to accept a decline to a lower status. Accept that any good players, like in the Irish league, would leave when possible. Once we accept that, we can then just say, the domestic league is everything. Even out the money somewhat and make it more competitive and more enjoyable (and I'd go for summer football). Perhaps the quality won't be better. It's just be a little bit more fun.

[12th Man]

This highlights the need for a 10 team SPL, without it Scotland out of Europe by August will be the norm instead of the exception.

Can you run that past me one more time please, as I cant really understand why Rangers and Celtic will be any stronger in Europe without Aberedeen and Hibs in the SPL.

[12th Man]

Lennon has made some good singings for Europe.

Who would have thought his best signing would be a Lawyer

[Council Juice]

This highlights the need for a 10 team SPL, without it Scotland out of Europe by August will be the norm instead of the exception.

It is the norm for Scottish teams to be out of Europe by August unless it's the old firm. The only difference their abject failure. Had they got through against the relative minnows they faced all would be ok. The only difference this time is they mucked it up too. I dont see how on earth 10 teams would make any difference. Just that they'll have to play the bottom teams 4 times instead of 3. Why not just go for a league of 6 then? Get rid of playing the bottom 4/6 teams.

If any change is to happen, and I'd only do it to rid of the split, it has to be more and the finances in terms of broadcasting has to be more evenly spread. Ok Rangers and Celtic will get more. It has to be achknowledged (however grudgingly done that is) that they bring in the punters, especially from abroad. So they will be shown more and therefore would be seen as entitled to getting a slightly bigger slice.

Whatever we do, we dont want our game to become like the Spainish league where 2 teams dominate and take all the money whilst the rest of the teams fall into debt and can't really afford to sign anyone and the 3rd placed team, millions in debt, finish 20 points behind the runner up. No we cant let that happen. That would just not be acceptable at all.

Oh wait...

Too late

[Alex MacLeod]

Celtic and Rangers get the lions share of funding in Scottish football. This came about, with the formation of the SPL, so they could build teams that would dominate the domestic league and, thus always have the chance to compete in Europe. Unfortunately the people who agreed to all this didn't look to the future. They didn't see that this sort of setup would penalise all the other clubs to the extent that the quality of football would be affected. Without the quality of domestic competition the two teams carrying all the Scottish hopes dont develop the quality and skills they need to have any success.

[Ten4]

The way things are going- Gers will be deducted points if they somehow end up in administration, with all the publicity over their tax problems.

Funny thing will be if anything like this ever did happen - they would probably still have eough points to qualify for Europe

[starchief]

Well, there you go...

I thought Celtic dominated large portions of the match but, just like McCoist, Lennon seems to refuse to use a substitute. Just no cutting edge. Surprised they didn't either bring on someone like Commons to cross the ball better than Samaras, or one of the central mids for a two up front. Mind you, Bangara looked nothing when he got on.

Missed opportunity and the same old story.

[Alex MacLeod]

I didn't think they dominated anything. The way Athletico were playing I think, had it looked like Celtic had the upper hand, they would have just changed up a gear.

[marks]

I see Sion are still chasing reinstatement.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/14952753.stm

[starchief]

Yeah, I don't get it. So what if a Swiss court says so. It's nothing relevant.

[ICTRoughi]

I see Sion are still chasing reinstatement.

http://news.bbc.co.u...ll/14952753.stm

Celtic will be trying to get them reinstated

Edited September 16, 2011 by ICTRoughi

[bauhaus]

The better days of Scottish football were largely prior to the onset of computer games and most modern technology. Kids would go out in all weather kicking a ball, come rain or shine, snow and frost. That has now disappeared. The kids who do still go out in all weather, will be the ones we are watching in ten years time, difference is, the coaches have ten times less talent to nurture.

All weather pitches, covered community pitches, and doses and doses of encouragement will be needed. The game has changed so much in 25 years. Money has changed it. Celtic won the European cup with ALL Scottish players, Rangers, Aberdeen, and Dundee Utd when they were at their best were full of Scots.

Italian, Spanish, German, French, Dutch teams were all full of their own players, with only the exceptional few going to play their football in foreign countries. English football was full of the best British and Irish players. In fact I think before the Bosman ruling, very few won the English league without a backbone of Scottish, Welsh or Irish players.

Money and Greed has destroyed all of this. The English, Spanish, Italian, and German teams now have the best players in the world, with all other domestic leagues picking up those who are below this level. Where its all gone wrong for Scottish football, is the not so good foreign players in our game, who are keeping out our young talent, preventing them from developing and getting their chance.

Our 12 team, and previous 10 team league strangled our game. Teams are so scared of dropping out of the SPL, the managers are unwilling to play our own talented youngsters, in favor of older journeymen with experience. A bigger league would mean room for the safer teams to try and develop the kids, and give them the chance, and in the long run improving our stock and depth of talent.

Barca are the big exception to this in modern times, and if we could have some of what they have we should order masses of it, better weather, loads of pitches, and brilliant youth coaches. Some might shout what about Man U, Arsenal etc. Sure they have very very good youth players in depth, but they are both buying them in from all over the place, depriving the smaller teams of their future players ( Celtics Islam Feruz an example ) because they cannot afford to pay a 16 year old ? 2,500 a week. Back to money again.

The only way Scottish football will improve without big money is to concentrate on youth development. Expand the league to give managers the security to try things. Get the under 21s or under 23s back, so they get a chance to develop. Play offs and relegation, and access to the leagues from non league to unstagnate things

[starchief]

Youth development only works when the youth are willing to stay and be developed. Instead, the Cowies, Macguires, Wilsons, Conways etc etc etc are quite prepared to go south at the first opportunity. Often to sit on the bench of what we used to know as the Second Division. No, I don't think it's the developing youth, it's the keeping of them. Every year, Motherwell and Dundee United seem to have to build a virtually new squad as any promising player goes south to a big name club like Preston or Doncaster.

I was reading yesterday about Barry Lavety being signed by Hibs from St Mirren, what, about 10 years ago?, for IIRC ?200,000. Seems a different world ago.