Against All Odds- Online edition

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

It simply had to leave quite a bit out for legal reasons - I presume. There were a lot of dudes baying for blood and could have had a field day in regard to misrepresentation.

Charlie - be feckin honest now - were you wholly pro merger from the off ? (or are my old memory cells playing games with me)

In fact - how many of the actual foot soldiers of the Howden End, the Corrriegarth and even the Wine Shed pro merger anyway ?

[Charles Bannerman]

It simply had to leave quite a bit out for legal reasons - I presume. There were a lot of dudes baying for blood and could have had a field day in regard to misrepresentation.

Charlie - be feckin honest now - were you wholly pro merger from the off ? (or are my old memory cells playing games with me)

In fact - how many of the actual foot soldiers of the Howden End, the Corrriegarth and even the Wine Shed pro merger anyway ?

In actually think that the entire question has long since become academic anyway given that the merger project - once realised - brought the previously inconceivable benefit of SPL football to Inverness in a decade. That, however, doesn't make the story any less worth telling almost two decades on. There were those who were for the merger, there were those who were against it. The pro merger view prevailed and Inverness has what it has as a result.

OK someone may well come back with the "but Caley could have gone it alone" line and I really don't want to get into a debate in this area so far along the line. So I'll just say that there will be a lot of people out there who are very glad that the last 17 years has had a lot more to offer Inverness than going down to Telford Street (or some other similarly modest venue had Caley's quest for one been any more successful than Inverness City's) to watch games against Alloa, Brechin and Arbroath. Remember Caley did have a great support but also had an element of unpopularity in the town. So going it alone, without INE's support, without a very large slice of the £1.8 million of public money eventually realised and without Thistle's half million pounds of assets would have been no picnic - had Caley been elected to the league in the first place.

However I've already said more than I intended on a subject which I now think history reduced to little more than an academic curiosity many years ago.

"Against All Odds" was actually Dougie McGilvray's choice of title, made a few weeks before the book went to print. Whilst writing it, I used the working title of "Blue, Black and Red" which did appear a burning issue at the time, but with the benefit of the wider perspective over the years, I think Against All Odds is a much better title.

Finally, and I think I can safely associate the CTO publishers with this viewpoint, I am highly delighted at the very positive response to this initiative and thank people for their kind comments.

Edited September 3, 2011 by Charles Bannerman

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Well that is a sign of the times - a hugely political, sit on the fence and disappointly avoidant response. I was totally against the merger at the time and I did - and still do think - that Caley could have gone it alone IF the funding and sponsorship came along - unlike many other "refuseniks" - after 3 years - and a reluctant acceptance of an invitation to stand in the Bridge End - I was sucked back in as to me the team now is Inverness - never mind the rest.

The CB response is very much Thistle slanted which from a psychological perspective says it all - I can decode yer answer Charles.

This debate has emerged again becos of this much publicised on line version and much publicised new chapter - otherwise it wouldnt have been an academic dinosaur. All I am saying - and I say that I am rite - is that the "foot soldiers" AT THE TIME -especially the Howden Enders were against all of this - and I am being honest enuff to state my case.

So why put it on line in the first place and add another chapter ? Many posters on here who were not around at the time do want to know about the turbulent events that led to the formation of ICT. It is far more than simple history and an academic curiosity to the people who stood on the Howden End and the Shed at Kingsmills. That is an INSULT to suggest otherwise.

In conclusion I concede that Caley may not have made it to the SPL on their own - but who feckin knows. All I know is that my footballing passion, heart and devotion now lies with Inverness Caledonian Thistle but I will always be CaleytillIdie and I admire and respect many of my Jaggie mates who say the same thing about Thistle.

That piece of history, nostalgia and memories will never leave the diehards of Caledonian FC or Inverness Thistle FC.

[Charles Bannerman]

The CB response is very much Thistle slanted which from a psychological perspective says it all - I can decode yer answer Charles.

Johndo... when you are "home alone" next weekend, maybe we should meet up for a wee while in one of these places where "old people" drink which you were seeking in the Olde Sneck section and have a right good blether about "the way it was". Or even if you are in the Caley Club post match I will most definitely catch you there from about 630.

I'll tell you something - 1993-96 when all of this was going on were probably the most interesting years of my life!

Edited September 3, 2011 by Charles Bannerman

[old caley girl]

Johndo agree with you all the way. Dont know if Caley would have made it to the spl but we will never know if they would have now. Still CaleytillIdie too! Much as ICT is my team now I still find it hard to sing o2b.

Charles I remember the merger years well and all I can say is you must have had a boring life up till then!

Edited September 3, 2011 by old caley girl

[CaleyD]

Johndo, I think you are totally missing the point.

We can remember and look back to what happened in the past without the need to reignite the tensions and disputes that took place at the time...just as students in history classes can look back to events surrounding war and conflict without the need to pull out weapons and re-enact them.

IMO, the publishing of the book and now the re-publishing of it online is not about dragging up all those arguments all over again, it's about ensuring that each and every new generation has the opportunity to get a glimpse into what happened so they can understand the sacrifices that were made to bring ICT into being.

It would serve the history of the clubs, old and new, better if people chose to share their memories in a more positive and constructive manner, instead of remaining bitter and using them to continue to try and score points in a battle that is long since over.

The "What Ifs" and "Could have beens" should be little more than a passing curiosity, not a ongoing point of contention and negativity....move on!!!

[Kind of Blue]

I speak as someone who was a keen observer and participant in the birth of the merger. In my opinion and to cut a long story short, Caley on its own would not have got the funding (or site) for a new stadium. It therefore would have, at best, got into the 2nd division but no chance of the SPL. I actually voted against the merger at the Muirton meeting but now have no regrets that the merger was absolutely the correct path to follow. I relish the memories of the many fantastic highs(and forget the lows)over the past 17 years and look forward to many more good times again.

Edited September 3, 2011 by Kind of Blue

[old caley girl]

Reading the book has reawakened old memories of the merger which wasnt an exciting time for me some of them are horrible really. For the record I too voted against at the first meeting but yes at the other ones. I also feel now that the best thing happened as we are an spl club which was beyond our wildest dreams in those days.

Caley D I have many great memories of pre merger days and do share them often. However Im not really sure if anyone who wasnt about in those days really cares how the club came into being ie the bitterness etc. Maybe thats how it should be after all the years have moved on and apart from enjoying a good read probably the majority of supporters feel like this.

Edited September 3, 2011 by old caley girl

[Charles Bannerman]

Charles I remember the merger years well and all I can say is you must have had a boring life up till then!

Don't you believe it OCG! From the moment that INE announced in May 1993 that they were going to try to broker a merger right through to April 1996 when the then new Highland Council finally agreed to honour the former District Council's commitment that £900,000 was "payable", it was almost a story a day with one twist following another. I still have a large reel of audio tape on which I have kept a lot of the key interviews and reports from that vibrant period in the history of football in Inverness.

Some of the best stuff came from the Rebels such as being at the Clach Park when news filtered through by that new gadget the mobile phone that there had been a pitch invasion at Rothes. Next day I was in Finlays for the Rebels' inaugural meeting when Young Brooman lamented the recent passing of Diggar MacGillivray and rightly wondered what Diggar would have had to say. Then there were manic discussions with Beaumont and the time he sought me out personally to do an interview after he had unilaterally declared himself Chairman of Caley in a fashion jointly reminiscent of Lenin arriving at the Finland Station in 1917 and Christ cleansing the Temple.

I also found myself in both the Muirtown and the Rannoch Lodge on that historic night of September 9, 1993 when there were two "yes" votes and then off to interview Fiona Larg about the outcome. Then 4 months later the "league election" party at INE HQ - actually on the very same spot on Bridge Street that the Highland League had been founded almost exactly 100 years previously.

Humorous moments too such as the Rebels mooning at Jock McDonald after the illegal Urquhart had scored the winner in the last Inverness Derby and the time they painted the Caley Park unrinals black and red. Fireworks being thrown in Rose Street Hall and Fiona Larg banned from a Kingsmills meeting because she was a woman.

It was three solid years of one bizarre story after another with innumerable instances of arriving home in the early hours of the morning and thinking.... "nope... this ISN'T going to happen."

But it did.... Against All Odds.

Edited September 3, 2011 by Charles Bannerman

[Charles Bannerman]

And I've just realised that I've among all these "highlights", I've forgotten to mention the Rebel Bus!!!

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

My first response was obviously a bit tongue in cheek, knowing that CB couldnt respond directly to the questions - CB knows my views and if or when we have a swally at the weekend the topic of conversation will probably be the Hearts game, the present team and situation and personal chit chat. I avoid talking about the merger as it can still be an emotive subject for some and it should remain in the past now.

CaleyD evidently protects CB and the latest project - but they are the ones who opened the wounds again - and took the merger issues back in to the here and now. I find it reassusring that many of the fans who were not involved at that time are showing an interest of finding out about the birth of their club. I just feel that the content of an other wise excellent read are slanted and again I can appreciate why.

CaleyD's second paragraph is as inflammatory as anything else said on this thread - what total overdramatisation.

Maybe I have got it wrong but I would have thought that my open and honest admission that I was totally against the merger, point blank refused to have anything to do with ICT for three years but buried the hatchet and am now as passionate as any about ICT could not be more positive and constructive. But call it PTSD if ya want but it does bring back the memories - I felt that a club that I loved had died - or at the time killed off. I am not trying to score points - I am trying to convey a personal perspective which is shared by quite a few.

I can recall that one of my first replies when I joined this forum was from CB who could not believe it was me. The first away game that I went to I hardly recognised a soul as a new breed of fans had emerged and has blossomed ever since. And I could not believe that the Tinks had stolen the O2B song and it was a certain IHE that turned the Jaggie anthem rightly back in to an ICT terrace chant !!

Said it before many times but to close - Caley never hated the Jaggies - it was always at a banter level until the merger proposals moved towards being a reality.

O2B

[dougal]

Dougal! Seriously dude, please stop putting a damper on someting positive.

to quote that kid in The Shining "Reddot, Reddot!

Don't see whats remotely positive??

All you Bannerman,CaleyD and that strange finger fella have achieved is to stir/wind up some of the pre-merger fans and open up some of the wounds that were healing quite nicely till this publication was put on line

I tip my hat off to you if this was a fishing trip though as you've certainly had a few bites

I've ran out of red dots but you'll be getting one tomorrow when I log back on

dougal

[Scotty]

All you Bannerman,CaleyD and that strange finger fella have achieved is to stir/wind up some of the pre-merger fans and open up some of the wounds that were healing quite nicely till this publication was put on line

What bollocks !

For a start, CaleyD was only involved in the fringes and it was mainly me who was involved from the CTO side so slagging him off without knowing the facts is ignorant. If you want to slag anyone off - slag me ... (but remember to read the site rules thoroughly before you do ). For another thing ... the "wounds" you speak of have healed quite nicely with most people. It is only those clinging onto the past and not embracing the current history of the club who talk of re-opening old wounds ... the rest of us, IHE included, are intelligent enough to never forget the past, but to look to the future, and most of us are quite capable of talking or reading about the merger with ICT fans or fans of the founding clubs without resorting to petty jibes.

As far as I am concerned ... all that publishing this has done is to allow those who frequently have asked for a copy of the book to be able to get one.

The original book is there, and so is the updated version with the new chapter. If some want to take the opportunity and turn it into another anti-merger rant then that just proves that they are the ones living in the past..... and using this thread as an excuse for doing so. Move on FFS. If you dont like it, dont download it, its a personal choice !

IHE has made one of the better posts in this thread, and raises a valid point about dredging it up again. I can see your point about that ... and perhaps you are right to say that "many" do not want to know about the turbulent birth of the club, its entirely possible .... but I would counter by saying that many do ! How many threads do we see from people looking for a copy over the course of a year ? How many times has CB been asked the same question. It may not be into the thousands, but there is certainly a demand for it.

The merger is past, it happened, and its now history .... We are now following ICT and it is the now and the future which is important. However, I personally believe it is right to give people the option of reading about our history so they can make themselves aware of it if they wish. As I said above, its a personal choice, its there to download if you wish to as much as it can be ignored if you dont want to read it .... its not a forced download and reading it is not a condition of membership .... so for anyone to say it should not be there is hypocrisy in my opinion.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

I actually stated that I felt that it was reassuring to see "new" fans being interested in knowing the full history of ICT but was simply trying to state that the book has a bias to it. Dougal is rite to an extent that is does bring back the memories and I can understand why he snaps when he has been through it and some of the snipers probably havent.