IAN BLACK ?

[Caley Mad In Berks]

Nobody comes out of this smelling of roses, really.

Yes, thats the unfortunate thing.  If it wasn't for Gretna, we'd be the laughing stock of the SPL (apart from the SPL management themselves, of course), for washing our dirty linen so openly in public.

By the way H the G, good to see you back posting again. I've always thought you have just about the best user name on the forum

[gordyfromsneck]

He's not the Messiah! He's a very naughty boy!

[+HawkeyeTheGnu]

Yes, thats the unfortunate thing.  If it wasn't for Gretna, we'd be the laughing stock of the SPL (apart from the SPL management themselves, of course), for washing our dirty linen so openly in public.

It's no wonder we've being playing so badly, the rate at which we keep shooting ourselves in the foot! The club need to employ someone with some media Savvy stop this happening. Give Mr bannerman a job!

By the way H the G, good to see you back posting again. I've always thought you have just about the best user name on the forum

Gee, thanks.

[Guest CaleyJaggy]

As for the Fergie comparisons, they are valid, Fergie sold Van Nistelroy who was arguably, if not, his best striker due to a disagreement (I can't remember what for).  He did the same with Beckham and others during his career.  Just because a player is worth ?20 mill or 100K doesn't mean they get a free pass.

You are completely missing the point. Ferguson could sell players of that talent because he know he could buy in players just as if not more talented. Brewster and ICT can not do the same. The comparisons ends with "selling a top player". Sure he could get rid of Black if he so wishes but we cannot easily bring a player to replace him or others like United could do.

By the way, Van Nistlerooy didn't get to start the League Cup Final and was benched for numerous games after. That's where a fall out was rumoured to have come from  :004:

Ok so let me get this straight.  Your saying that there are no other players around that are as good as Black that we could sign if we got rid of Black?  So we have signed the best players we possibly could have and it's only down from here? Twaddle!

Where did we get Black from?  Blackburn reserves was it? Whats to stop us doing the exact same thing again.  The players are out there, it's just getting them interested in Caley that's the trick.  Black was a youngster with everything to prove, we gave him that chance and he was good, we also got Morgan(iirc) from them and he didn't turn out so well.  That's what Caley have to do, get players with something to prove and give em the chance to do so.  Dods, Brown, Rankin, Robson.  4 players that have come here with something to prove and have moved on.  We take the loss of players and move forward.

[Johnboy]

Unfortunately for Brewster he has been clobbered with this when his stock is already pretty low, thanks to the transfer of Rankin, and the Wyness contract saga...

It would be completely out of order for him (Brew) to be fired just because of a fall-out with a player. At the same time he has largely brought all this on himself. When he was sacked from DUFC he claimed that certain players there had made life for him extremely difficult.

I'm not sure I know what the answer to all this is. I sincerely hope the club is having a serious look at recent developments. They should at least, be sitting round a table and talking about it... I'd hate to see Blackie playing against us in the future...

[Jay_7]

"When he was sacked from DUFC he claimed that certain players there had made life for him extremely difficult."

I read that as I had to leave because no one had confidence in me.

[Johnboy]

"When he was sacked from DUFC he claimed that certain players there had made life for him extremely difficult."

I read that as I had to leave because no one had confidence in me.

I'd say both these statements are correct....

[RiG]

Ok so let me get this straight.  Your saying that there are no other players around that are as good as Black that we could sign if we got rid of Black?  So we have signed the best players we possibly could have and it's only down from here? Twaddle!

Where did we get Black from?  Blackburn reserves was it? Whats to stop us doing the exact same thing again.  The players are out there, it's just getting them interested in Caley that's the trick.  Black was a youngster with everything to prove, we gave him that chance and he was good, we also got Morgan(iirc) from them and he didn't turn out so well.  That's what Caley have to do, get players with something to prove and give em the chance to do so.  Dods, Brown, Rankin, Robson.  4 players that have come here with something to prove and have moved on.  We take the loss of players and move forward.

Again you are missing the point. I'm saying we wouldn't find doing it so easy to accomplish as a club like Man United might do. We don't have infinite wealth. We don't have a great reputation. Like it or not our location is an issue when it comes to signing players. How many players do you hear saying Manchester is too far away and they want to move to be closer to their families? We could do it if we wanted to but "Player X" would not be as easy to replace as you might think.

An excellent case of this would be Darren Dods whom we have struggled to replace despite bringing in a couple of new defenders or even Dargo when he left for St. Mirren. Did Man United have the same problems when they needed a new striker to replace Van Nistelrooy or a new midfielder to replace Beckham?

Put simply - it is harder for ICT to attract a player to replace their top players once they depart. A problem Man United do not suffer from.

[Caley Mad In Berks]

Ok so let me get this straight.  Your saying that there are no other players around that are as good as Black that we could sign if we got rid of Black?  So we have signed the best players we possibly could have and it's only down from here? Twaddle!

Where did we get Black from?  Blackburn reserves was it? Whats to stop us doing the exact same thing again.  The players are out there, it's just getting them interested in Caley that's the trick.  Black was a youngster with everything to prove, we gave him that chance and he was good, we also got Morgan(iirc) from them and he didn't turn out so well.  That's what Caley have to do, get players with something to prove and give em the chance to do so.  Dods, Brown, Rankin, Robson.  4 players that have come here with something to prove and have moved on.  We take the loss of players and move forward.

Very well put.  And the Fergie example which one or two posters have jumped on was to indicate he would not tolerate indiscipline from any of his stars, no matter who.  Nothing to do with his ability to go out and buy replacements.  As stated above, within ICT's budget there are players out there who could replace Black, if he does go in the end.  Incidentally, I hope he doesn't, but that he comes up with the requested apology, and gets on with things.

[RiG]

Very well put.  And the Fergie example which one or two posters have jumped on was to indicate he would not tolerate indiscipline from any of his stars, no matter who.  Nothing to do with his ability to go out and buy replacements.  As stated above, within ICT's budget there are players out there who could replace Black, if he does go in the end.  Incidentally, I hope he doesn't, but that he comes up with the requested apology, and gets on with things.

Got any in mind?

And how have ICT done with regards to replacing Dods and Dargo and now Rankin?

We have become worse since these players departed and our league position backs that up.

[breachofthepeace]

This is verging on the humiliating for the club, why on earth is this  the subject of press attention? Surely it should be an internal disciplinary matter.

Even if the story has been leaked by Black, his agent or anyone else at the club it shows just how rotten things are and the lack of any respect for the management.

If the story has come direct from Brew then he should be fired on the spot for his stupidity.

Is it just just me or does this make us look like the amateurs from the sticks? :009:

[FortressICT]

And how have ICT done with regards to replacing Dods and Dargo and now Rankin?

We have become worse since these players departed and our league position backs that up.

Excellent post!  Very true! :clapping03: :clapping03:

[chris123]

The P&J really doesn't do us any favours. Neither Hibs nor Aberdeen have never stated a genuine interest in Black, but they will certainly sit up and take notice now.

[+HawkeyeTheGnu]

Is it just just me or does this make us look like the amateurs from the sticks?

The PR side of things, and dealing with the media has always been a farce. When things go well, e.g. Feb 8th 2000, things are fine, but otherwise.....

Just look at the various contract signing/non-signing faragos. News that is either negative, or encouraging to predators seems to seep too easily from within the walls of the TCS.

[+HawkeyeTheGnu]

Is it just just me or does this make us look like the amateurs from the sticks?

Our ability to handle the media for 'awkward' issues is very poor. Look at various contract signing/non-signing faragos.

Any negative news that encourages predators seeps too easily from the walls of the TCS

[Jay_7]

Ok so let me get this straight.  Your saying that there are no other players around that are as good as Black that we could sign if we got rid of Black?  So we have signed the best players we possibly could have and it's only down from here? Twaddle!

Where did we get Black from?  Blackburn reserves was it? Whats to stop us doing the exact same thing again.  The players are out there, it's just getting them interested in Caley that's the trick.  Black was a youngster with everything to prove, we gave him that chance and he was good, we also got Morgan(iirc) from them and he didn't turn out so well.  That's what Caley have to do, get players with something to prove and give em the chance to do so.  Dods, Brown, Rankin, Robson.  4 players that have come here with something to prove and have moved on.  We take the loss of players and move forward.

Very well put.  And the Fergie example which one or two posters have jumped on was to indicate he would not tolerate indiscipline from any of his stars, no matter who.  Nothing to do with his ability to go out and buy replacements.  As stated above, within ICT's budget there are players out there who could replace Black, if he does go in the end.  Incidentally, I hope he doesn't, but that he comes up with the requested apology, and gets on with things.

It's not very well put at all!  The reason it's not very well put is because the Fergie example cannot be applied to our situation.  Fergie has the influence, contacts and means to be able to make examples of his stars like that.  We on the other hand cannot afford to!  One of the statto's can fill you in on how much per league position we are losing at the moment because of Brewsters arrogance.

[Guest CaleyJaggy]

RiG, you seem to be missing my point.  Clubs bigger than Caley and greater managers than Brew have not been held to ransom by a player spitting the dummy and have moved forward.  Why should a player hold a club to ransom?  As for it being harder for Caley, of course it is but it hasn't stopped us doing it in the past otherwise we'd be playing in the 3rd Division

As for the signing the players.  Of course it is harder to sign players but it hasn't stopped us doing it in the past otherwise we'd be playing in the 3rd Division.  We lost Bobby Mann and signed Dods (who was thought to be a donkey when we 1st got him look how that worked out!), yes we lost Dods and signed Mcguire who doesn't seem to be as good as Dods at the moment.  Caley will rarely sign someone who is well known to replace any of our team members.  Who thought Dargo would be the success he was when we signed him?  Who had even heard of Ian Black when we signed him? 

The player we have to go after isn't the name it's the unknown that we need to identify, to bring on, so that our club continues to move forward and upwards.  Look at our team, how many of them have been here since the 1st Division? 2nd Division? we seem to be rare in that the vast majority of our team has been here for a long period of time.  The starting team on saturday 6 of the 11 have been here for at least 6 years (yes hastings has had 2 spells) what other team can state that?

[IcyTea]

I was speaking to a player earlier today and he told me a lot of the players are pi55ed of with Blackie and the chip on his shoulder.

They want him to kiss and make up or sod off.

[CaleyD]

What player in their right mind would want to sign for a team with a manager who asks for a players opinion and then punishes them for giving it?

Never mind replacements for Black, we'll be struggling to sign ANYONE in the summer if this is not sorted, or indeed if Brewster is still in charge.

The situation with Black is not an isolated incident.  It appears than any player with an opinion or who has the respect of the other players and perhaps a bit of influence is being slowly motioned towards the door.

**NEWSFLASH FOR BREWSTER** - Being a manager does not automatically mean you always get it right, and if so many people are telling you your getting it wrong then they might just have a point!!!  It's how you handle these situations that shows you for the person you really are, and if you can't hack criticism then your in the wrong job.

I don't believe for one second that Blacks statement came out of the blue, and I don't believe he is the only player who feels like this right now.  These situations don't just develop overnight, and regardless of your opinion on what Black said, the very fact it was allowed to get as far as it has speaks more for the inadequacies of the manger than it does foe the discipline of Black.

We can get rid of Black, but it will only be a matter of time before we're right back in the same position again with another player IMO.

I've been swaying on the subject of "Brew must Go", but the more I hear the more I think it's for the best for the team and club.  Changes are also needed elsewhere, but the relationship between manager and players is having the largest detrimental effect right now and the sooner it is halted the better.

[Caley Mad In Berks]

[it's not very well put at all!  The reason it's not very well put is because the Fergie example cannot be applied to our situation.  Fergie has the influence, contacts and means to be able to make examples of his stars like that.  We on the other hand cannot afford to!  One of the statto's can fill you in on how much per league position we are losing at the moment because of Brewsters arrogance.

On the other hand, can we afford not to?  If the manager is seen to be weak in a case like this and gives in to a player, only total anarchy will result.  It is a matter of principle, not the ease or affordability of replacing the player.

With regard to the league position/losing money situation which you brought up, may I remind you this thread is about Ian Black. Unless you are suggesting that we would have won the game with Aberdeen with Black in the side (and there is little evidence to support that, given the energy and determination shown against Aberdeen, as compared with the few games immediately before with Black in the team), then the your rant about Brewster's arrogance is off topic for this thread.

[RiG]

CaleyJaggy

To be honest I am not sure you really have a point. Can you clarify what it is? You haven't even addressed any of the points I made in my post about the problems ICT face compared to Man United in attracting players to the club which is what your recent posts have been about - likening Brewster and Black to Ferguson and Beckham/Van Nistlerooy which is not comparable.

RiG, you seem to be missing my point.  Clubs bigger than Caley and greater managers than Brew have not been held to ransom by a player spitting the dummy and have moved forward.  Why should a player hold a club to ransom?

Correct and of course they shouldn't but I am not disputing this in the slightest.

As for it being harder for Caley, of course it is but it hasn't stopped us doing it in the past otherwise we'd be playing in the 3rd Division

As for the signing the players.  Of course it is harder to sign players but it hasn't stopped us doing it in the past otherwise we'd be playing in the 3rd Division.We lost Bobby Mann and signed Dods (who was thought to be a donkey when we 1st got him look how that worked out!), yes we lost Dods and signed Mcguire who doesn't seem to be as good as Dods at the moment.  Caley will rarely sign someone who is well known to replace any of our team members.  Who thought Dargo would be the success he was when we signed him?  Who had even heard of Ian Black when we signed him?

How many times do I need to say this - I am not saying that we couldn't attract a player as good as or better than Black. What I am saying is that is not as easy as you seem to think with your whole Brewster/Black & Ferguson/Beckham analogy. Beckham went out and Ronaldo came in. Black, in theory, goes out, who comes in to replace him as easily as Man United replaced Backham and Van Nistlerooy?

This is my point. ICT don't have the financial clout, reputation or even location to be able to easily and readily attract talented players in a comparable manner to Man United who could click their fingers to find replacements for one of their players and you would get half of the worlds footballers chapping down their door for a shot at Old Trafford.

In fact you have actually managed to go against your own argument by listing two players ICT have never replaced fully in Dods and Dargo. Throw in Rankin and you have 3 key players that ICT have yet to fully replace and our league position has suffered as a result. What makes you think that Black will be so much easier to replace than those three?

 

The player we have to go after isn't the name it's the unknown that we need to identify, to bring on, so that our club continues to move forward and upwards.  Look at our team, how many of them have been here since the 1st Division? 2nd Division? we seem to be rare in that the vast majority of our team has been here for a long period of time.  The starting team on saturday 6 of the 11 have been here for at least 6 years (yes hastings has had 2 spells) what other team can state that?

What has this got to do with your Craig Brewster, Ian Black, Sir Alex Ferguson and David Beckham analogy which is what I am talking about?

[Jay_7]

[it's not very well put at all!  The reason it's not very well put is because the Fergie example cannot be applied to our situation.  Fergie has the influence, contacts and means to be able to make examples of his stars like that.  We on the other hand cannot afford to!  One of the statto's can fill you in on how much per league position we are losing at the moment because of Brewsters arrogance.

On the other hand, can we afford not to?  If the manager is seen to be weak in a case like this and gives in to a player, only total anarchy will result.   It is a matter of principle, not the ease or affordability of replacing the player.

With regard to the league position/losing money situation which you brought up, may I remind you this thread is about Ian Black. Unless you are suggesting that we would have won the game with Aberdeen with Black in the side (and there is little evidence to support that, given the energy and determination shown against Aberdeen, as compared with the few games immediately before with Black in the team), then the your rant about Brewster's arrogance is off topic for this thread.

So the whole point of your argument against me here is based on if the manager is only seen to be a weak link?  The manager is a weak link here, given everything else that has gone on recently, I'd far rather keep Black at ICT than Brewster.  Brewster is only doing more harm than good.

Refer to RiG's post above for the relevance of league position/losing money, it has everything to do with this thread but thankyou for flagging a potential issue there, glad I could clear it up for you.  :003:

[Guest CaleyJaggy]

You are completely missing the point. Ferguson could sell players of that talent because he know he could buy in players just as if not more talented. Brewster and ICT can not do the same. The comparisons ends with "selling a top player". Sure he could get rid of Black if he so wishes but we cannot easily bring a player to replace him or others like United could do.

That is the point I am disagreeing with.  We can and have in the past replaced important players with others who have been/become better than the player they are replacing.  I also never said it would be easy, just that it can be done. Bobby Mann/Dods being a prime example of when it has been in the past.  Sure you used the Dods/Dargo comparison and yes they haven't really been replaced but look at the players that they themselves replaced and the money we spent to get them.  That is an example of when we have bettered the team and done it within our means and that is the point we can do it.

You seem to be getting caught up in my man u/Caley comparisons.  The only reason man u were used is that is the 1st example of something similar to this situation that came to my head.  I am in no way comparing the two clubs as we are on a different level to them.  But on the level ICT operate we should be able to attract players to do a job for us and improve us as we have done in the past.

You and some others seem to be under the impression that Black is irreplaceable to the team all I am saying is that we have lost players in the past and managed just fine to replace them and Black will be no different, if he goes.

Edit - There was a point somewhere about the players who have been here so long but i'll be damned if I can remember what it was I posted by accident as I had to go out sorry ;)

[Guest TinCanFan]

Black'll be away in the summer I reckon.

[Johnboy]

Black'll be away in the summer I reckon.

That's a very thought provoking comment......  And your point is...?