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22 hours ago, TopSix said:

Good to see Charles turning into a soft-Yes voter post-Brexit. 

I would have thought that you already have quite enough Yes voters fitting that description. But, although there's no "material change" to my position, I would once again remind you of plenty of other examples of "material change" since 2014 such as the £15bn GERS deficit (making EU membership pretty unlikely anyway), the collapse of oil and the SNP no longer having a majority without taking their Green chums from out of their pockets. 

Then there's the problem of a EU/ non-EU border which would be created in the extreme unlikelihood of all three of the following all coming to pass. a) Westminster saying anything other than "You wanted the last one, you chose the date, you chose the rules, you chose the question and you LOST so **** off, get on with what you were elected for and stop bothering us about another go." b) The equally unlikely event of actually winning such a poll if it did happen and c) In the hugely unlikely event of both of the above.... any application to join the EU being greeted with anything other than "Du bist ein £15bn karkrash so pissen-sie auf!"

Let's just face it. Outwith the braying Facepainters and nervous SNP politicians putting on an act to save themselves from the faux-outrage of same, I don't think we're really seeing too much indignation and dismay in Scotland at Brexit. On the other hand, I can see that accepting the outcomes of referenda doesn't come naturally to many Nats. OK 62% of those who voted went for Remain and a large slice of them were Nat supporters anyway. This is just another excuse to pick another fight with Westminster and make an excuse for another vote. And all that before you even think about consistent polling evidence that only 39% even want another one while the rest of us just want to get on with our lives without the constant interference of this irrelevance which is damaging our already fragile economy. On which subject, what the SNP wants is to turn our backs on 64% of our trade (the rest of the UK) to cosy up to just 15% of it (the EU).

Finally... perhaps a modest apology to pro-separation contributors on here - even Oddquine! You are perhaps not quite as off the wall as I have sometimes portrayed you. How have I come to this conclusion? Well for some reason I recently found in front of me some kind of official SNP forum which has very probably by now been adopted as a database to train student psychoanalysts in diagnostics! It certainly confirmed my belief in the crank origins of Scottish Nationalist politics! The count of absolute roasters per column inch was as phenomenal as it was hilarious. If there's anything that could be invented as a grudge, a grievance or a paranoia....you'll find it there!

Edited by Charles Bannerman
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So much for the SNP's "conversation" about independence.  No hint of any kind of discussion but yet they press ahead with the next stage in the process of the only thing that interests them.  Their case for reneging on their "once in a generation" pledge is that the Brexit vote is a game changer.  It is nothing of the sort.  Let's just put aside the rhetoric of the SNP and look at the facts.

When Salmond called the first independence referendum everyone in Scotland knew that there was a strong body of opinion within the UK that we should leave the EU.  Support within the UK for leaving the EU was not much different from the level of support in Scotland to leave the UK.  Two important points arise from this.  Firstly, if the EU was so important to the SNP they should have pressed the UK Government for a referendum on EU membership before any vote on Scottish Independence was held.  This would have allowed the independence referendum to have been held with clarity regarding the UK's position within Europe.  Secondly, having opted for a vote against a background of uncertainty, it must have been obvious to anyone who voted to remain in the UK that there was a very real possibility that by remaining within the UK, Scotland could be taken out of the EU in the not too far distant future.  The SNP are hardly in a position to complain now that the UK has actually voted to leave the EU,  

The SNP then bleat on and on about Scotland having voted to remain in the EU.  It didn't.  This was a UK vote about the UK's position in Europe.  In 2014 Scotland voted to remain in the UK and in doing so, Scotland voted to accept the decision of the UK electorate in UK wide votes.  Sturgeon  has been talking about her "duty" to call a 2nd indy ref if Scotland's demands on EU membership are not met - and she said it with a straight face!  Sturgeon's duty is both to accept the will of the people voiced in the 2014 referendum - which her party foisted on us - and, following on from that, to accept the will of the UK electorate in the recent UK referendum.

Just as in 2014 when the SNP opted for an independence referendum against a background of uncertainty, the SNP seems hell bent on doing the same again in the light of Brexit.  They argue that the UK Government has no plans for a post Brexit strategy as if that somehow justifies a 2nd indy referendum.  Rather than engage constructively in the Brexit process and waiting to see what emerges so that people could know what they are voting on, the SNP wants to rush headlong into another divisive and damaging referendum.  But, of course, if we are to have a 2nd referendum, the level of uncertainty will be far greater than the uncertainty they are using to justify having it in the first place.  At least with the UK Brexit we know what currency we will be using!  

And how irrational to use the EU as the justification for a 2nd indy referendum!  With Scotland's current budget deficit there is no guarantee that the EU would allow an independent Scotland to join.  If it did, then the terms of membership are likely to be far less favourable than the UK electorate has just rejected and it is quite possible that the Scottish electorate may not then vote to join the EU on those terms.

The strategy of the SNP is clear.  They don't care what is best for Scotland and they have no respect for the democratic process.  They simply want independence come what may.  So they muddy the waters in the hope that they can con enough people into thinking the others are responsible for the uncertainty they are causing and that an independent Scotland would take us away from the uncertainty.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  A YES vote in a 2nd independence referendum, splitting us from our biggest market (4 times larger than the EU), would plunge the country into a far more uncertain future and the current Scottish budget deficit would result in far greater austerity than we have experienced in recent years.  

When Sturgeon pledged at the SNP conference that she would do whatever was necessary in the interests of the Scottish people, I thought she was going to announce that she was going to honour her previous commitment to the 1st referendum being a once in a generation event. :tongueincheek:  I should have known better.  She simply wants to win independence for Scotland.  The interests of the Scottish people don't come into it.

 

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A further insight into the SNP's strategy and shameful neglect of the day job was demonstrated in BBC Radio Scotland's morning news programme today.  Firstly there was the leader of The Highland Council warning of further cuts to public services as a direct consequence of the SNP Government's continuing squeeze on local government.  The SNP berate the Tories for some of their policies and then do much the same in Scotland.  They then pass the blame onto the Tories in an attempt to get the people to hate them even more.  But let's be clear about this; for all the SNP's whingeing about Tory austerity, the appalling squeeze on local government in Scotland is SNP austerity pure and simple.

There was also news of a report from the Royal College of Nursing expressing grave concern about nursing levels.  Despite the SNP having been in charge of the NHS in Scotland for the past decade we have vacancy rates for nurses at 4.2% and set to increase due to the number of nurses approaching retirement age.  This SNP Government is the very same SNP Government which, during the independence referendum, told the nation that we needed independence to protect the NHS from privatisation.  Yet in the past year, this SNP government have increased spending on agency nurses by over 40%.  It is pouring valuable public money into the private sector, not to improve the efficiency of the service but simply to plug gaps created by their own staggering ineptitude.  Despite being invited to send a spokesperson to discuss the issues, the Government declined to do so.  What a devious, hypocritical and incompetent bunch the leadership of the SNP have become

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12 hours ago, DoofersDad said:

So much for the SNP's "conversation" about independence.  No hint of any kind of discussion but yet they press ahead with the next stage in the process of the only thing that interests them.  

 

12 hours ago, DoofersDad said:

 

The SNP then bleat on and on about Scotland having voted to remain in the EU.  It didn't.  This was a UK vote about the UK's position in Europe.  In 2014 Scotland voted to remain in the UK and in doing so, Scotland voted to accept the decision of the UK electorate in UK wide votes.  

The strategy of the SNP is clear.  They don't care what is best for Scotland and they have no respect for the democratic process.

 

Another realistic and down to earth post from DD and I'll choose the three points above from a number of very valid ones.

"Conversation about independence"? Of course they've been having one!..... among their own members and supporters at the likes of their party conference and that lunatic message board I spoke about yesterday. That way they only have to listen to what they want to hear because they have absolutely no answers to any sensible questions that may be put to them from outwith. I have seen absolutely no evidence at all of any face to face public "conversation" by way of SNP supporters chapping on doors or stopping people in the streets or holding the promised Town Hall meetings. I will continue to live in hope because I REALLY want to discuss this issue with SNP supporters.

As for the EU vote, the SNP need to get a grip and understand that Scotland is simply a region of Britain - which voted to leave. Certain areas of it didn't, others did. If the SNP feel so strongly about the "disenfranchisement" of constitutional non-entities (please note the hyphen) then why didn't they start whingeing about independence for Glasgow and Dundee after September 2014? Bring it down to an individual level. I didn't vote for Drew Hendry or for Feckless Fergus, but I still have them as my MP/MSP.

I suspect in their sad delusional state, the SNP do actually BELIEVE that they care what is best for Scotland - simply because they are utterly incapable of separating Saltire waving Party from State.... which is always a very dangerous delusion on the part of a Nationalist party.

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Haven't looked at the "What Scotland Thinks" website for a while and in looking tonight I notice there was a poll done for the Glasgow Herald and dated 4th October which I can't recall having seen mentioned anywhere before.  It puts support for Independence down to 39% ("NO" 47% with 15% don't know).  This is the lowest level of support since the 2014 referendum.  

An interesting point which may well put people off the idea of independence is that if an independent Scotland was part of the EU, Scotland would need to go through the EU in order to get a trade deal with the rUK.  The rUK is far and away Scotland's biggest trading partner but yet an independent Scotland would have minimal influence in the EU.  So much for independence meaning Scotland would have control over it's own affairs!

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1 hour ago, DoofersDad said:

Haven't looked at the "What Scotland Thinks" website for a while and in looking tonight I notice there was a poll done for the Glasgow Herald and dated 4th October which I can't recall having seen mentioned anywhere before.  It puts support for Independence down to 39% ("NO" 47% with 15% don't know).  This is the lowest level of support since the 2014 referendum.  

An interesting point which may well put people off the idea of independence is that if an independent Scotland was part of the EU, Scotland would need to go through the EU in order to get a trade deal with the rUK.  The rUK is far and away Scotland's biggest trading partner but yet an independent Scotland would have minimal influence in the EU.  So much for independence meaning Scotland would have control over it's own affairs!

Polls will inevitably swing a little about a general trend but inevitably and obviously that trend is now away from separation. We now have to wonder what will happen as people get more and more fed up of the Nats banging on about this irrelevance while Scotland's public services go ever more t*tsup on the Nats' watch.. or at least lack of it. I really do wonder how many pairs of tartan knickers Nicola has now bricked at having to appease Lodge Disloyal Mel Gibson 1314 on the one hand but at the cost of thoroughly p!ssing off the mass of sensible voters out there who just want decent schools for their kids, to sleep safe in their beds at night and their grannies to see a GP in less than a month. And that's a wonderful Catch 22 type point in DD's second paragraph! In fact, in general, the Nats are pinning their hopes on Brexit but in turn, Brexit makes a separate Scotland even more unworkable than it was in the first place.

I believe that support for having a second vote also stands at about 39%...hardly a "mandate"! The Inverness Courier online poll on this has been quite hilarious. For weeks it sat around 30% in favour of another go and was steadily dropping through 28 when the issue of Referendum 2 went very public. Overnight - and clearly as a result of a spontaneous orgy of Cybernattery - this jumped to 61% :lol: but ever since, has been dropping back again and currently says 55% as a more representative slice of the electorate again begin to dilute that Cybernatic distortion.

Edited by Charles Bannerman

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Gee, this Better Together thing is really working out, just as well we are too stupid to go it alone and put all our faith in our lords and masters, Boris, Jacob, etc.

Fair play to all the No voters, you guys really called this one, caps doffed.

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Yes is assuming the question is the same - What about should Scotland remain in the Union ?  

 

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The big problem for Scotland after all  - Is can Scotland afford it ? ,    All the imports would have to be paid for. All these nice cars on Harbour Road all the goods in  all the big stores are mainly imported  would have to be paid for in the originating countries currency

Oil revenue could crash - Apparently even in good times there was insufficient revenue to cover the cost of the NHS

It can't be done folks , forget it. Let the treasury in London worry about the imports.

This idea that it gets Scotland away from a reactionary government doesn't hold. It is not a general election it is for ever. Can  SNP people guarantee that a reactionary government would never get power in Scotland , course they can't forever is a long time.

Just think about it. Of course scots are passionate people and to think it is all sweetness and light, and people on benefits will all be bathing in goats milk ,

No there are not enough tax payers to fund the expense of extra benefits.

The whole idea of Independence is a dream, nothing more nothing less. Brexit was a bad idea, this is worse.

The idea that Scotland as a separate country would be welcomed with open arms, in Europe  Wouldn't work either. If a border in Ireland is difficult one running from Gretna to Berwick , would be a nightmare, Imagine every time you go south, being stopped and having to show your documents.

I am an on-line seller, I rely on the Royal Mail. Seriously if you ran the Royal Mail would you operate in Scotland, with its long distance between towns, and the commitment to supply remote Islands, No you would leg it from Scotland the day separation took place and the Act of Parliament that enforces the use of the Royal mail would no longer apply,

If you are not a Scot, you would to all intents and purposes be living in a foreign land, Something a lot of people would not be comfortable with.  Have you considered that the millions of Scots living in the south would find themselves living in a foreign country. At one time Scots were really well liked in England, they had professional jobs , and looked up too. Even now after the last Referendum. The stock of Scots living in England has dropped considerably. Young people go to England to make a career. Job opportunities for graduates amongst other aspects are better , So what do you get a sort of mini brain drain.

No Thanks , we are much better together.  

The SNP claim on occasion to be Socialists one of the early principals of Socialism, was to break down borders, not build them.

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After more than 300 years of the Union, Scotland is the only country in the world that can't afford to be independent. Doesn't sound like an advert for the union to me.

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23 hours ago, Laurence said:

The big problem for Scotland after all  - Is can Scotland afford it ? ,    All the imports would have to be paid for. All these nice cars on Harbour Road all the goods in  all the big stores are mainly imported  would have to be paid for in the originating countries currency

Oil revenue could crash - Apparently even in good times there was insufficient revenue to cover the cost of the NHS

It can't be done folks , forget it. Let the treasury in London worry about the imports.

This idea that it gets Scotland away from a reactionary government doesn't hold. It is not a general election it is for ever. Can  SNP people guarantee that a reactionary government would never get power in Scotland , course they can't forever is a long time.

Just think about it. Of course scots are passionate people and to think it is all sweetness and light, and people on benefits will all be bathing in goats milk ,

No there are not enough tax payers to fund the expense of extra benefits.

The whole idea of Independence is a dream, nothing more nothing less. Brexit was a bad idea, this is worse.

The idea that Scotland as a separate country would be welcomed with open arms, in Europe  Wouldn't work either. If a border in Ireland is difficult one running from Gretna to Berwick , would be a nightmare, Imagine every time you go south, being stopped and having to show your documents.

I am an on-line seller, I rely on the Royal Mail. Seriously if you ran the Royal Mail would you operate in Scotland, with its long distance between towns, and the commitment to supply remote Islands, No you would leg it from Scotland the day separation took place and the Act of Parliament that enforces the use of the Royal mail would no longer apply,

If you are not a Scot, you would to all intents and purposes be living in a foreign land, Something a lot of people would not be comfortable with.  Have you considered that the millions of Scots living in the south would find themselves living in a foreign country. At one time Scots were really well liked in England, they had professional jobs , and looked up too. Even now after the last Referendum. The stock of Scots living in England has dropped considerably. Young people go to England to make a career. Job opportunities for graduates amongst other aspects are better , So what do you get a sort of mini brain drain.

No Thanks , we are much better together.  

The SNP claim on occasion to be Socialists one of the early principals of Socialism, was to break down borders, not build them.

Oh Laurence I think that's the worst post you have ever made 🙈  I am not even going to argue against as you would not even listen. Far too many Union Jacks buzzing about your head 😆

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2 hours ago, IBM said:

Oh Laurence I think that's the worst post you have ever made 🙈  I am not even going to argue against as you would not even listen. Far too many Union Jacks buzzing about your head 😆

A poor post but, believe me, it is a very long way from being the worst ever made by this particular poster. Still waiting for Lawrence, or indeed any other Unionist, to explain why the best and most appropriate people to govern Scotland are not the Scots or indeed why they consider Scotland, uniquely among small Northern European countries rich in natural resources and resourceful people, incapable of managing it's own affairs.

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Well, looking at my television at the  BBC  World News every day,  I come to the conclusion that the whole thing appears to be an unfortunate shambles. Boris Johnson  looks and acts  like a figure out of  a comic book and his views seem to get more and more ridiculously frenetic and non-calm, not to mention destructive and self-serving,  than ever.

I have to say , however, that regardless of whether she is right or wrong, I have to admire the tenacity and courage , not to mention the dogged and unfailingly polite and calm attitudes of P.M.May . She's the  clock that is taking a daily licking but keeps on ticking.

Where will it all end? Can Scotland ever become independent with a dwindling population, no coal, no oil and even  if Scottish Whisky is making millions by way of growing export sales around the world,  what else does it have now to  attract industry and jobs and a burgeoning economy?....Offshore wind turbines?  Skiing in the Cairngorm mountains? Nice one Cyril except that once these structures etc. are built and operational what then?

Isn't your fishing going down the tubes?  If so, then it's not alone because  over-fishing all over the world seems to have  had a major negative effect  on the remaining fish stocks.. Conservation efforts are now being made by the Canadian Government to attempt to stop the incoming  hump-back whales going extinct....so much so that the countless large ships that enter the Pacific port of Vancouver now must adhere to recently-introduced regulations  for them to reduce their speed and the  associated underwater engine noise which discombobulates the progress of the whales by making  them lose touch with their respective pods , babies, etc. Sure hope you can work out a compromise with the Europeans though over Brexit.

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34 minutes ago, Scarlet Pimple said:

Well, looking at my television at the  BBC  World News every day,  I come to the conclusion that the whole thing appears to be an unfortunate shambles. Boris Johnson  looks and acts  like a figure out of  a comic book and his views seem to get more and more ridiculously frenetic and non-calm, not to mention destructive and self-serving,  than ever.

I have to say , however, that regardless of whether she is right or wrong, I have to admire the tenacity and courage , not to mention the dogged and unfailingly polite and calm attitudes of P.M.May . She's the  clock that is taking a daily licking but keeps on ticking.

Where will it all end? Can Scotland ever become independent with a dwindling population, no coal, no oil and even  if Scottish Whisky is making millions by way of growing export sales around the world,  what else does it have now to  attract industry and jobs and a burgeoning economy?....Offshore wind turbines?  Skiing in the Cairngorm mountains? Nice one Cyril except that once these structures etc. are built and operational what then?

Isn't your fishing going down the tubes?  If so, then it's not alone because  over-fishing all over the world seems to have  had a major negative effect  on the remaining fish stocks.. Conservation efforts are now being made by the Canadian Government to attempt to stop the incoming  hump-back whales going extinct....so much so that the countless large ships that enter the Pacific port of Vancouver now must adhere to recently-introduced regulations  for them to reduce their speed and the  associated underwater engine noise which discombobulates the progress of the whales by making  them lose touch with their respective pods , babies, etc. Sure hope you can work out a compromise with the Europeans though over Brexit.

Scarlet, Scotland's population is at a record high level and still growing, there is plenty of coal still under the ground and under the sea, enough to last more than a century if we were to want to continue to ruin the planet, fortunately we don't and choose to generate our electricity by greener means of which we are world leaders, we have the largest and most sustainable wild fish stock in Europe as well as the second most successful farmed fish industry in the word and Scotch whisky sales do not generate millions of pounds of income, they generate multiple billions of pounds.  Scotland is on the cutting edge of developing wave and tidal energy and has an almost perfect coastline to generate and export it. We are world leaders in online and video game technology, have a healthy financial sector, are home to leading biomedical companies and have a very healthy and growing tourist industry which consists of just a little more than skiing in the Cairngorms for six weeks in a year.  That is to name but a few of the advantages and potential advantages at our disposal.

If you think that being governed by a far more populous Southern neighbour with increasingly different values, standards and ambitions to your own  is the way forward then perhaps Canada should give it a try.

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I should have added that perhaps Scotland's greatest potential asset is a whole generation of young people who, if the polls are to be believed, have the confidence and willingness, unlike the majority of my contemporaries, to grasp the opportunities and deal with the challenges of independence and build a bright future for themselves and further generations to come.

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31 minutes ago, Kingsmills said:

Scarlet, Scotland's population is at a record high level and still growing, there is plenty of coal still under the ground and under the sea, enough to last more than a century if we were to want to continue to ruin the planet, fortunately we don't and choose to generate our electricity by greener means of which we are world leaders, we have the largest and most sustainable wild fish stock in Europe as well as the second most successful farmed fish industry in the word and Scotch whisky sales do not generate millions of pounds of income, they generate multiple billions of pounds.  Scotland is on the cutting edge of developing wave and tidal energy and has an almost perfect coastline to generate and export it. We are world leaders in online and video game technology, have a healthy financial sector, are home to leading biomedical companies and have a very healthy and growing tourist industry which consists of just a little more than skiing in the Cairngorms for six weeks in a year.  That is to name but a few of the advantages and potential advantages at our disposal.

If you think that being governed by a far more populous Southern neighbour with increasingly different values, standards and ambitions to your own  is the way forward then perhaps Canada should give it a try.

ooft, killer final line for Scarlet P, a good if misinformed in this case poster.

Good point, too, about the younger generation, though Laurence sez their 'stock' is low doon sooth, so maybe they will have to stay and build their country into what it might be, instead of going down with that sinking ship down there. 

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Na! NA! Kingsmills, I did not say or infer that I was any kind of knowledgeable or expert commentator on your political matters. We sometimes have difficulty here in Canada  in fathoming out what the best route it would be for our  own Governments (local and Federal) to follow for the benefit of this vast country with all it's resources. But we have found that rarely do any of the politicians we have really care that much  about the people who elected them. Basically they are mostly in it for themselves, the huge salaries and benefits, the lovely pensions when they retire  etc, etc. In Ukraine , for example, the so called elected officials' are feuding daily with each other, scrambling over seats to get into the incredible physical punch-ups  that occur there. Apparently they are  all thugs to begin with or they would have not been elected at all.....:whistle:

 What I was simply inferring,  perhaps, is that from a distance it does seem as if the whole  turmoil -ridden  process is not going to solve the issue. The party  in power is desperate to stay in power and I don't think they are significantly motivated by anything else. Has a joint political plebiscite from all the parties at Westminster ever been considered as a possible way to attempt to solve this huge issue for the benefit of ALL British residents, regardless of their political stripe? Is it not so serious that reverberations from the outcome will affect many future generations. The present dichotomy involving the major political figures of your Parliament  does not seem to be achieving very much or am I wrong?  Over and out.

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On ‎11‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 11:42 PM, IBM said:

Oh Laurence I think that's the worst post you have ever made 🙈  I am not even going to argue against as you would not even listen. Far too many Union Jacks buzzing about your head 😆

The Union flag to give it  its correct title  ( Jack is a flag for marine use )  was designed by a Scotsman

The debate is not purely a political one  but about a way of life.  There are many functions that the two countries enjoy . That will be lost on separation. Look at all the  rows  surrounding Brexit, that would be nothing should Scotland leave the Union.

I can see immense problems I won't go into now , but they are self evident.. Some would  a "no deal", others would want to negotiate, a veritable minefield  awaits if  the vote goes to separate.

I say again ii is not a general election , present day politics , should not be part of the debate.

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Laurence I am glad you did not go into the immense problems now, dougie is confused enough as it is!

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Well,  courageous Elizabeth May is back with a deal in her hand.

I wish you all well but whether you like it or not there is no way back now. Good luck all.

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