May Not Be As Bad As We Think

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Alex fer fecks sake - put your feckin manager head on - What is happening must have been totally feckin obvious since the final whistle blew against the Bairns. Like Caley D says there should have been a contingency plan - I would have been preparing it in feckin January. And come on - it is no coincidence that this press release followed pressure on this Forum - this is the source of information to the muppets and they even have their spokespersons milling about to.

Birdog - I think I am close to the wavelength but like Kirishima I will wait and see - as fer the criticism - I repeat that there was no comeuppance or repent for the numerous glaring mistakes made over the last two seasons - The large majority of us have been highly critical of the manner in which this club has been run over the last two seasons - What I wanted was for changes to be made not wage feckin cuts - It is STILL the same peeple in charge who we have been slating for ages - We get the well we were a wee club who spent years in the SPL - that is enuff - Bollicks !! - Butcher and the relegation spirit kept us all off their backs - perhaps they thought that they had got away with it - Bollicks (again)!!

And finally - learning from mistakes - am I not wrong that we were highly critical when we failed to splash out on new players with reputation at the beginning of last season - I can recall peeple saying that it was because we were awaiting the outcome of the Marius saga and that we were happy to stick with what we have got plus some unknowns or untrieds - Does that ring a feckin bell !!

[tm4tj]

Reality hurts sometimes.

When expectations exceed reality, it is time to slow down, get back to grass roots and rebuild for the future.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Reality leaves a lot to the imagination. ~John Lennon

[Guest birdog]

CaleyD and Johndo I am not saying wait until we are relegated again I am saying wait until whatever plans the club have had are put in place and see what the outcome is. It is only six months since fan power created a total shift in the direction of the club's management during that time we have seen short term contracts issued and the club waiting for the outcome of the season before issuing contracts which may well have bankrupted us if they had been in place when we were relegated, there is no way we could survive relegation with an SPL payroll. To me this shows forward planning, yes there could have been a statement to that effect but we would all have jumped on that statement and started shouting about defeatist attitudes and being resigned to be an SFL club. The plans were there, they were kept from us to avoid more of the Brewstergate reactions. Terry Butcher came out after the Motherwell match and said that there has always been a plan B but they were hoping that this was not needed.

Wait till we're relegated and then make a plan- discussed above

Wait till that plan is made then do a budget- Discussed above

Wait till the budget is done and decide on redundancies- discussed above

Wait till fans complain before communicating- discussed above

Have a plan in place at Christmas every year for what to do if relegated.- A well run company should always have a plan B in place, true

Know what your budget is going to be for that plan- I think that the short term and loan contracts shows some consideration was given to this but until season ticket sales and advertising contracts/sponsorship deals renegotiated there is no way of knowing exact figures for any budget.

Know exactly where job cuts are going to be needed- I would assume that at least some of this had been sorted out previously.

Be ready to communicate the plan almost immediately- Communicate to whom? The fans or those whose lives are affected by the plan, then the fans?

If you guys are looking to create a fan uprising then you are just going to have to wait for me to join that bandwagon and until the club show that they are not learning from the past 5 years then I am sorry but I think that the best way forward is to let them try to prove themselves and I will keep on saying so until that time.

Remember it's only 6 months since we showed our teeth, I would hope that a lot of thinking has been done by the club since then. Do you think that anyone is going to want to take up the challenge of taking over a division 1 side with fans who will turn on the management at every twist and turn. You wanted communication the press release gave us a hint of what might be on the horizon, I'll wait for the final press release on the restructuring subject and thank the club for responding to our concerns with a snippit of the ongoing process, I am convinced due to the wording of the release that it was published as an answer to issues raised on this forum and that it was pushed through before the club intended.

[Georgeios]

Danny is a beleve off to County.... But only because of the wage cut he was offered here and Ross County offering what he IS worth...

[caleyboy]

Danny is a beleve off to County.... But only because of the wage cut he was offered here and Ross County offering what he IS worth...

He certainly wasn't worth what he was getting here and I doubt very much if he will get as much at County!

[Georgeios]

Danny is a beleve off to County.... But only because of the wage cut he was offered here and Ross County offering what he IS worth...

He certainly wasn't worth what he was getting here and I doubt very much if he will get as much at County!

Pls Explain what you mean by the above?

[FourFourTwo]

Danny is a beleve off to County.... But only because of the wage cut he was offered here and Ross County offering what he IS worth...

He certainly wasn't worth what he was getting here and I doubt very much if he will get as much at County!

I have to agree here...i heard that he was paid a ridiculous amount of money...and as the creator of Team ICT or whatever the youth dept was called, he may well have awarded himself that wage.

Nice guy, hard working, but CC could easily fill his shoes on half the money.

[L_G]

Danny is a beleve off to County.... But only because of the wage cut he was offered here and Ross County offering what he IS worth...

I don't believe that to be the case.

[caleyboy]

Danny is a beleve off to County.... But only because of the wage cut he was offered here and Ross County offering what he IS worth...

He certainly wasn't worth what he was getting here and I doubt very much if he will get as much at County!

Pls Explain what you mean by the above?

Sure, "He certainly wasn't worth what he was getting here and I doubt very much if he will get as much at County!"

Is that any clearer?

[Georgeios]

Danny is a beleve off to County.... But only because of the wage cut he was offered here and Ross County offering what he IS worth...

He certainly wasn't worth what he was getting here and I doubt very much if he will get as much at County!

I have to agree here...i heard that he was paid a ridiculous amount of money...and as the creator of Team ICT or whatever the youth dept was called, he may well have awarded himself that wage.

Nice guy, hard working, but CC could easily fill his shoes on half the money.

When CC took the job as Head Coach at ICT, DM was actually better Qualified but said he did not want the spot light job as he loved the youth side of thing and didnt want to lose his ICT job, prompting CC to ask what would happen if things didnt go well, this is why he was Head Coach and not Manager, If it didnt go well he'd just step down as coach and not have to leave the club...... Danny still holds more qualifications that CC? And I also this you will find CC is on more money now and even back then than DM, so CC doing a better job that DM for half the money is a non-starter?.

[Sorted]

Danny is a beleve off to County.... But only because of the wage cut he was offered here and Ross County offering what he IS worth...

He certainly wasn't worth what he was getting here and I doubt very much if he will get as much at County!

I have to agree here...i heard that he was paid a ridiculous amount of money...and as the creator of Team ICT or whatever the youth dept was called, he may well have awarded himself that wage.

Nice guy, hard working, but CC could easily fill his shoes on half the money.

When CC took the job as Head Coach at ICT, DM was actually better Qualified but said he did not want the spot light job as he loved the youth side of thing and didnt want to lose his ICT job, prompting CC to ask what would happen if things didnt go well, this is why he was Head Coach and not Manager, If it didnt go well he'd just step down as coach and not have to leave the club...... Danny still holds more qualifications that CC? And I also this you will find CC is on more money now and even back then than DM, so CC doing a better job that DM for half the money is a non-starter?.

You are certainly right about Danny being the most qualified coach at the club in his time there, the question I would ask you is how much coaching he ever did at any level during this time?

[FourFourTwo]

Danny is a beleve off to County.... But only because of the wage cut he was offered here and Ross County offering what he IS worth...

He certainly wasn't worth what he was getting here and I doubt very much if he will get as much at County!

I have to agree here...i heard that he was paid a ridiculous amount of money...and as the creator of Team ICT or whatever the youth dept was called, he may well have awarded himself that wage.

Nice guy, hard working, but CC could easily fill his shoes on half the money.

When CC took the job as Head Coach at ICT, DM was actually better Qualified but said he did not want the spot light job as he loved the youth side of thing and didnt want to lose his ICT job, prompting CC to ask what would happen if things didnt go well, this is why he was Head Coach and not Manager, If it didnt go well he'd just step down as coach and not have to leave the club...... Danny still holds more qualifications that CC? And I also this you will find CC is on more money now and even back then than DM, so CC doing a better job that DM for half the money is a non-starter?.

You are certainly right about Danny being the most qualified coach at the club in his time there, the question I would ask you is how much coaching he ever did at any level during this time?

Your right. I heard that it was a bone of contention at the club, that Danny Mac was the most qualified at the club, but wouldnt actually get himself on to the training ground and coach the kids - unless the SFA were visiting - since he was probably listed as the main coach for funding purposes.

Also, heard on the grapevine that John Doc was given his jotters yesterday....another one bites the dust!

[Georgeios]

Whos going to be left? no John "The Legend" Doc

[Scarlet Pimple]

"Fan power?". "We are responsible for the new announcement, forcing the Board to come out with it ,etc, etc " ?

Some of the posters on here are allowing this to go to their heads and are sounding just as arrogant themselves as those they accuse of arrogance.In what way are the Board arrogant pray?

According to what has been said on the Forum before, in fact a Relegation Plan WAS in place before the end of the season.

The Board required to remain silent due to the serious nature of recent developments and of course they will be reasonably sensitive to the restlessness of certain fans who agitate for news but they are running the club and need to act in accordance with their own needs and thoughts instead of responding with knee jerks every second to overly-critical views of fans who basically have no great inside knowledge of the workings of the Board or the club, or the stresses and strains attendant on this, at all, nor have put time and effort or personal capital into the Club as these Directors have.

Additionally, these Board Directors remain at risk at all times of losing the value and worth of all this energy that they introduce into the club by the making of incorrect decisions yet choose to shoulder that burden alone without whining to the fans or asking for sympathy or money to offset THEIR disappointments or financial losses, nor complain in public aboput the mud that is thrown at them often unfairly.

This is on a par to some extent with the expressions of persons who say that all rich people are bad because they aver that the rich have gained their wealth at the expense of the less fortunate in all cases. This premise overlooks the tremendous worth that some rich persons inject into society whether it be by way of countless jobs, silent charitable donations that never see the light of public day, the purchasing of, or start-up of eventually successful , businesses which provide valuable service to the community as a whole and so on.

George Fraser's long statement is very open and explanatory. He is refreshingly direct and his language is clear, crisp and to the point. I like George Fraser if for no other reason than his linguistic abilities are a credit to the club and are a touch of educated class in an otherwise negative, brutal world where mayhem, corruption, greed, violence and many other perversions of morality and spirituality are becoming depressingly commonplace and the norm .

In other words, for crying out loud give these folks a break. And time .

The season has not even started and yet every move they make or choose not to make is an offense to some outspoken supporters whose love for the club should be directed in more positive ways and who have the quality and capability to enunciate their thoughts differently. :015:

[CaleyD]

Can we try and get away from the who's better than who, and who earned/earns what and whether they deserved more than anyone else arguments?

It costs X amount of money to run a club at whatever level, and whilst we all might have an opinion on whether or not that money is being best spent, having a go at individuals....some who have been great servants to this club....is getting dangerously close to the stage of intruding into people's personal lives.

If you don't like the way the club are spending money, then that's fair comment IMO, even a passing comment/observation on an individual may be acceptable, but this one seems to have become nothing but a points scoring exercise between a few people on who can dish the most dirt on someone to prove their point....and that's not acceptable.

On the subject of Head Coach/Manager...it is nothing more than a different title for the same job. As far as I am aware we have not had anyone who's actual title has been "Manager" since Pele left, so suggestions that one or other people who have filled the role since then have had different titles for any reason other than it being fashionable to use different terminology is, as far as I can ascertain, nonsense.

[Georgeios]

On the subject of Head Coach/Manager...it is nothing more than a different title for the same job. As far as I am aware we have not had anyone who's actual title has been "Manager" since Pele left, so suggestions that one or other people who have filled the role since then have had different titles for any reason other than it being fashionable to use different terminology is, as far as I can ascertain, nonsense.

Correct me if im wrong but, TB= Manager MM=Head Coach, there is a differenct, TOR's are different.

[CaleyD]

"Fan power?". "We are responsible for the new announcement, forcing the Board to come out with it ,etc, etc " ?

Some of the posters on here are allowing this to go to their heads and are sounding just as arrogant themselves as those they accuse of arrogance.In what way are the Board arrogant pray?

According to what has been said on the Forum before, in fact a Relegation Plan WAS in place before the end of the season.

There's nothing at all to suggest that a relegation plan was in place before the end of the season. Quite the opposite in fact, and much of what has happened since the final whistle against Falkirk on the last day of the season supports that fact.

The Board required to remain silent due to the serious nature of recent developments and of course they will be reasonably sensitive to the restlessness of certain fans who agitate for news but they are running the club and need to act in accordance with their own needs and thoughts instead of responding with knee jerks every second to overly-critical views of fans who basically have no great inside knowledge of the workings of the Board or the club, or the stresses and strains attendant on this, at all, nor have put time and effort or personal capital into the Club as these Directors have.

Are you serious? The fans are THE largest financial contributor at ICT....and every penny they put into the club is from their own pockets. Not only that, but they put in the time and effort every week to follow the team, be it home or away, and some will spend far more travelling to one game than some of our Directors will find themselves out of pocket in attending games over an entire season.

What also amazes me is how the fans actually manage to find the income to support the club in any way whatsoever....after all, we're all obviously total morons who don't have enough brains to tie our shoelaces and we can't possibly have any concept of what it takes to run a business or be part of a Board.

Do you think that among all those sitting in the stands every week we don't have businessmen, managers, self-employed business owners, administrators and all the other skills that would be necessary to run any business? What makes Football such a mystical entity that only a chosen few are capable of doing the job?

Additionally, these Board Directors remain at risk at all times of losing the value and worth of all this energy that they introduce into the club by the making of incorrect decisions yet choose to shoulder that burden alone without whining to the fans or asking for sympathy or money to offset THEIR disappointments or financial losses, nor complain in public aboput the mud that is thrown at them often unfairly.

Nobody is asking them to "shoulder the burden alone", quite the opposite. In fact, it's the inward looking nature that seems to have developed with the club that's causing all the problems. As for not asking for sympathy or money....that's hilarious. Granted, you're not local so may not be aware of everything that happens in the press, but I lost count last season of the number of times the club were in the press asking for understanding and time whilst encouraging fans to attend and part with their hard earned.

In terms of "THEIR financial losses"....what financial losses are those? There's not a Director on that Board who has a single penny at risk with ICT.

And finally...."not complaining in public about the mud that is thrown" did you miss the public outburst aimed at the Chairman of the Supporters Trust back at the turn of the year?

This is on a par to some extent with the expressions of persons who say that all rich people are bad because they aver that the rich have gained their wealth at the expense of the less fortunate in all cases. This premise overlooks the tremendous worth that some rich persons inject into society whether it be by way of countless jobs, silent charitable donations that never see the light of public day, the purchasing of, or start-up of eventually successful , businesses which provide valuable service to the community as a whole and so on.

Eh?

George Fraser's long statement is very open and explanatory. He is refreshingly direct and his language is clear, crisp and to the point. I like George Fraser if for no other reason than his linguistic abilities are a credit to the club and are a touch of educated class in an otherwise negative, brutal world where mayhem, corruption, greed, violence and many other perversions of morality and spirituality are becoming depressingly commonplace and the norm .

In other words, for crying out loud give these folks a break. And time .

The season has not even started and yet every move they make or choose not to make is an offense to some outspoken supporters whose love for the club should be directed in more positive ways and who have the quality and capability to enunciate their thoughts differently. :015:

You're right, George Fraser is very clear in what he says. In fact, he's so clear in what he says that I remember when he took over as Chairman he made a statement saying that if the fans were still talking about the Board in 6 months time then he hadn't done his job.

Here we are, still talking about the Board....so what do we conclude from that?

I'm actually very close to losing my rag because your post is not only full of inaccurate ramblings, but it also serves to do more harm than good.

Every time the Club/Board mess up, all we hear is "give them time, they're trying their best". At what point do you accept that someone's best intentions just aren't cutting it? Do we wait until we're in the position of Livingston, Gretna or any one of the 50+ clubs in the UK who have been in administration, or worse, since 1992 as a result of fans giving their clubs time because they thought the board were doing their best?

[CaleyD]

On the subject of Head Coach/Manager...it is nothing more than a different title for the same job. As far as I am aware we have not had anyone who's actual title has been "Manager" since Pele left, so suggestions that one or other people who have filled the role since then have had different titles for any reason other than it being fashionable to use different terminology is, as far as I can ascertain, nonsense.

Correct me if im wrong but, TB= Manager MM=Head Coach, there is a differenct, TOR's are different.

I remember someone asking the question at one of the Trust Fans Forums (I think) and us being told that it was purely a terminology thing and that Head Coach and Manager were the exact same job with the exact same responsibilities etc.

[absent friend]

"And finally...."not complaining in public about the mud that is thrown" did you miss the public outburst aimed at the Chairman of the Supporters Trust back at the turn of the year?"

I read the above statement on here so often but I am surprised that someone who is continually referred to as a MUPPET had only one outburst, public or otherwise!

I rather doubt if I could be so in command of my emotions over such a prolonged attack, right up to this day.

I feel we, the fans, can only give it if we are willing to take in return.

Can I take it then Don, reading your above reply in full, that you along with IHE are keen on some sort of fans confrontation with the current Board?

[Scotty]

"And finally...."not complaining in public about the mud that is thrown" did you miss the public outburst aimed at the Chairman of the Supporters Trust back at the turn of the year?"

I read the above statement on here so often but I am surprised that someone who is continually referred to as a MUPPET had only one outburst, public or otherwise! I rather doubt if I could be so in command of my emotions over such a prolonged attack, right up to this day.

I feel we, the fans, can only give it if we are willing to take in return.

Can I take it then Don, reading your above reply in full, that you along with IHE are keen on some sort of fans confrontation with the current Board?

Selective quoting I feel AF ..... Whilst I do agree with your comment "I feel we, the fans, can only give it if we are willing to take in return." the truth of the matter is that DFS did make a comment and Don was only replying to Scarlet's assertion that the board "choose to shoulder that burden alone without whining to the fans or asking for sympathy or money to offset THEIR disappointments or financial losses, nor complain in public about the mud that is thrown at them often unfairly" by pointing out that mud was indeed thrown, and has been, from all directions. I think we also know that the fans have been asked for both patience and money over the years so the whole paragraph is at best inaccurate.

If you had wanted to make your post more rounded and complete, you could do worse than quote Don's post from a little earlier ...... I feel that this is spot on.

Can we try and get away from the who's better than who, and who earned/earns what and whether they deserved more than anyone else arguments?

It costs X amount of money to run a club at whatever level, and whilst we all might have an opinion on whether or not that money is being best spent, having a go at individuals....some who have been great servants to this club....is getting dangerously close to the stage of intruding into people's personal lives.

If you don't like the way the club are spending money, then that's fair comment IMO, even a passing comment/observation on an individual may be acceptable, but this one seems to have become nothing but a points scoring exercise between a few people on who can dish the most dirt on someone to prove their point....and that's not acceptable.

I think Don is right and whilst people may have an issue with Grassa, David Sutherland, Mike Smith, or anyone else at the club, the constant denegration of these individuals does nothing to help.

Can Mike Smith do his job? I do not know. However, as chief exec, one of his responsibilites is to keep our finances healthy and regardless of what anyone thinks about his people skills he has kept the club in the black for a few years so it would suggest he does know what he is doing. The Niculae saga may put an end to the black ink, but I would not lay the blame for that debacle at his door.

Can Grassa do his job? I do not know. We all know that he is definitely trying his best and for many years did so whilst only drawing legitimate expenses. Sure he took an emolument when we reached the SPL but can any of us say he didnt deserve it? Just how much time did he spend away from his own business during that time and how much earnings did he lose whilst on mandatory ICT business where timescales and meeting dates etc are dictated by the SPL? Did he get some perks? Probably, but all in all, I dont begrudge him that. Now we are back in the SFL we have been told that he is no longer taking the salary part of that emolument and going back to just expenses .... where is the harm in that?

Is David Sutherland the big bad wolf? Thats a hard one for me to answer. I like David Sutherland and he will always have my respect for what he has done for ICT over the years. However, I did lose a little of that respect for him when he called out his namesake, who to my knowledge had not done that to him on a personal level. However, regardless of that outburst he does not deserve the constant moniker of "muppet" levelled at him and other club officials.

I personally, am sick and tired of all the bitching and moaning over the least little thing, especially when it degenerates into personal attacks on named staff members or assertions by posters that this person or that person isnt worth their wage when the poster has feck all idea about what that staff member actually does. They might not get everything right, but I dont think any of them are doing it wrong on purpose, and I dont think most of us could/would do any better.

I also have another fear ... and that is that by moaning about everything it dilutes the effectiveness of complaining about legitimate gripes. Its the classic cry wolf scenario. We bitch and moan and make a noise about everything and when the big one does come along no-one listens because we are always moaning. Also, by alienating people and calling them muppets we invite, and give good reason for the club to close down the small shoots of communication that have recently been peeking above ground ... by all means exert pressure, or call them out when something significant is wrong but f*** me, this constant barrage of negativity over absolutely everything is f***ing depressing.

And finally ... on a personal level, I have to think of the impact on the site. To that end, I have imposed sanctions on a couple of posters this morning because recent accusations/attacks - whether eventually proved to be factual or not - are, in my opinion well over our boundary line in terms of "abuse" aimed at named individuals. Those posters can try to get their jollies by abusing staff members but every post they make puts this site further into the crapper in terms of rebuilding relationships with the club and I do not find that acceptable nor am I willing to stand by and watch 15 years worth of work be flushed down the toilet.

End of Rant !!!

[CaleyD]

I wasn't commenting on the justification of the verbal attack from DFS on DJS, just correcting Scarlet when he stated that those pulling the strings at the club were somehow suffering in silence.

In regards to being able to "take it", you can be sure that if someone wants to make justified and constructive criticism of anything I have to say then I'll happily listen. I've been subjected to enough of it publicly on here over the years, and I've also had to suffer a good amount of "tell your mate to wind his neck in" comments aimed at me indirectly from those who don't have the balls to stand toe to toe and debate an issue or point with me.

I'm not immune to emotion taking over, but I do find myself fortunate enough to be surrounded by people who's opinions I respect and who can (and will) tell me when I've come close to, or overstepped the mark....when I get it wrong, I'm big enough to apologise.

One of the things I always make clear to people I work with is that I don't do politics, bureaucracy and BS. If I've got an issue I'll come straight out with it, if they have an issue I would appreciate they do the same. If things need done and problems need solved then the quicker you get down to it the better and dancing around worrying about upsetting the sensibilities of individuals or small groups doesn't often best serve the bigger picture.

Another thing about me is that I don't give up easily (check my avatar), and I certainly don't give up just because someone tells me I should. If you want to change my mind then you have to put forward a better argument than me, convince me that there's a better way of doing/looking at something.

As for confrontation...it's not what I want, but that's not how life works. I understand and accept that just as I'm not willing to lie down and be steamrollered, the club and those running the club will be of the exact same mind. The result will inevitably be confrontation, but so long as people don't allow it to get personal and are willing to give the other a chance to put their case then there's no reason it shouldn't be healthy. The outcome is generally one of compromise, where each side has to give up a little something in order to obtain the things which are of higher priority to their cause/beliefs/ideas....unfortunately we don't have that kind of system in place at ICT and I feel the fans are fighting a dictatorship which is telling us that it's their way or lump it....and that's a situation that I cannot and will not accept.

Until someone convinces me that I'm somehow wrong in wanting the fans to get their deserved recognition and representation for the part they've played and continue to play in ICTFC, I ain't going anywhere.

[Johnboy]

Another thing about me is that I don't give up easily (check my avatar).....

Tail wagging the dog?

[CaleyD]

Yeah, Johnboy....that's the one

[absent friend]

"In regards to being able to "take it", you can be sure that if someone wants to make justified and constructive criticism of anything I have to say then I'll happily listen"

I again apologise for my selective quoting but at no time did I refer to you being/not being able to "take it" if you re-read my comments you will note that I am referring to the fans, plural.

I have no recollection of you ever using muppets when referring to the board!

The point I was making, quite simply is, if you tease a dog often enough don't be surprised if he, at sometime, snaps back!!