Is Butcher the Man for the Job?

[AJS]

They deserve another season as their genius revoloution that was supposed to be put in place this season has be de railed by injuries, harsh red cards etc etc.

It cannot be denied that the signings of this season alone have all shown flashes of quality when they have played but what they have not shown and what was clearly evident today and has been seen throughout this season is an outrageous lack of fight, a lack of bottle.

Hibs were there for the taking today and we let that slip through our fingers because we simply bottled every chance that came our way today apart from a penalty and a feckin cross (not many more of them will hit the back of the net.)

We were a solid unit last season because the team we had then was a closely knitt squad that had a great understanding of each other and how they worked. I saw none of that today and the fact that we are still getting things like that wrong at this stage of the season is making me sick of going to games. It was the closely knitt squad we got promoted with that should have been built upon, rather than a mass exodus.

Terry and Mo still have a chance to save themselves but only if they are wiser in the market this summer. What we are needing is some more experience and some more quality and i can only hope they are given some of the Muirfield Investment to do so. Im also fairly sure that with the money in his pocket Terry would be able to attract a higher and better quality of player, the better the quality then the better we will be. If he takes another summer of recruiting youngsters from down south then he can kiss any support and probably our SPL status goodbye.

[Jay_7]

And yet above both Dunfermline and Hibs, whilst pushing to be above Aberdeen. Either these players aren't as bad as you're making out or Butcher's a terrific manager to get this much out of them.

Aye we really pushed to be above Aberdeen today, eh? And on Wednesday. The players are crap. We've played 32 games and lost 17 of those.

[CaleyAlly]

Why does everyone hate tansey, imo i think hes a good player

[bauhaus]

All this drivel because we lost 1-0 at home to the team with the best away record in the SPL, and then after we boss and batter Hibs, who score with all 3 shots they have in the entire game, and we created loads of chances but luck wasnt their today.

Im looking forward to next season, as I can actually see the basis of a very attractive team and style of football.

[Granty24]

My problem with Butcher is that he's ripped the ethos right out of the club. Although there's a bit of Brewster in there too. We used to be a hard working side full of good scottish players that played for the badge, but now we're full of foreigners that don't care and just want to further their careers. For example, here's a team from a game in 2005 against hibs where we won 2-0:

Brown

Tokely

Dods

Munro

Hastings

Duncan

McBain

Black

Dargo

Brewster

Wilson

And here's the hibs team:

Malkowski

Whittaker

Caldwell

Smith

Fletcher

Thompson

Beuzelin

Riordan

Brown

Sproule

Glass

Some change, eh? I preferred that team then and I can geniunely say I've never disliked a crop of players like I do the current one. No passion; no effort; no skill. The days of the hard working squad are over and I think we may have a few more tough seasons like this ahead if we keep reshuffling and gambling with youth from the depths of English football. What we need is continuity and a squad where each and every player has to prove their worth and doesn't walk into the team (Foran). Look at a few seasons back when Golabek was our captain and he got injured; he didn't get back in the squad pretty much all season. The message should be clear: perform or be dropped. That isn't the case right now. As for my earlier point on Scottish players; look at County. Their team is predominantly Scottish this year and they've romped the SFL1. Just a thought...

[Guest Mahonio]

Is Tel the man for the job? Of Course he is.

What does he need to do to make next season more successful? Well thats simple, sort out the backline, building it around Esson, as he promised and also get in an out and out goalscorer, oh and get rid of all the deadwood, that should just about cover it imo.

[Alex MacLeod]

In answer to the question. No he isn't................................................that honour was copyright protected by Don Taylor many years ago.

[bdu98196]

@Granty24 - The issue isnt the nationality - no idea where people get this from, its not like we have a youth Academy and develop players for the cause, we get the odd youth player who has the quality. The team has to be made up of the best players available for the money we have to spend. As for your list of players from 2005 that proves what, you could post the 2010 team which won 4-2 but chose not to as it had at least 3 Irish players?

There are obvious weak links which need addressed. This manager took us up from D1 at first time of asking (not seen many relegated clubs do that recently) - we have all but got SPL survival this year (not sure what people expect - CL football next season and break the OF domination?). TB has to have assessed where he underestimated and will need to bring in better quality everyone accepts that, although that cant be judged til this time next year.

[CaleyD]

The most disappointing thing this season is that I know we have players who are capable of much better. Last week against Aberdeen we were a dream to watch in the first 45 minutes and then showed real guts after going down to 10 men to hold on for the win. To then watch the exact same players come out and play like a bunch of lads picked up at the local park the day before is a bit gaoling....and that has been the story of our season.

Yes, we've had more than our fair share of injuries and dubious cards/suspensions...but that doesn't, on its own, explain the flip-flopping performances. You can understand one or two players having the odd off day, but for us it seems to be everyone or nobody who's up for it come game time.

We can argue the reasons for that around and around all day long. It's easy to sit and look at the effect, we all do it. Can we honestly put our finger one thing and say "that is the cause"? I don't think we can. Yeah we've got things wrong with our tactics here and there, but we've also had more than our fair share of misfortune with injuries etc.

I was speaking to a few guys who support other teams around the country yesterday (was at a meeting of Trusts) and some of them were surprised that we hadn't been cut adrift at the bottom and were praising Butcher for holding it together and doing what he have done under the circumstances. So the picture from the outside looking in is very much different than the one we may have from being so close to things.

I've said it before....Butchers biggest mistake this season was all the talk of a Top 6. It created an inflated expectation among the fans and now, having failed to deliver and regardless of the reasons, we're seeing a bit of a backlash on that. I personally saw/see nothing wrong in his previous approach to questions on the league table where focus was always on catching the team ahead...wherever that was in the table...and I'd be happy for us to go back to taking that approach again in future.

[Tichy_Blacks_Back]

Although still bitterly disappointed after yesterday's result - I think 'yes' he is but as I have mentioned in other threads next season is a big one for both the players and the management team to show that they can change things around as you can only get so far on past achievements and you have to continue to strive to improve (and have the desire to do so).

The process of self-healing/cleansing:

1) starts with the next six games,

2) getting our 2012/13 squad sorted out as soon as possible,

3) arranging an adequate team building/galvanizing pre-season, and

4) starting next season with a first 15 in mind that will take us forward.

ICT FC (management and players) over to you....prove to us that you can take the club forward another step or two....

[SMEE]

My problem with Butcher is that he's ripped the ethos right out of the club. Although there's a bit of Brewster in there too. We used to be a hard working side full of good scottish players that played for the badge,

This is pretty much how i feel. I raised the possibility of this this happening last pre-season, and it seems i was justified to do so. We ALWAYS had something that no amount of money could buy...and that was team spirit, they fought for each other on the pitch. Now...i dont see/feel that there is much of that left. ICT is now a zombie team, full of 11 players going thro the motions and doing the minimum to scrape by.

[jaggy]

SMEE, Granty24, I agree with you both, in that we have individuals playing as well as they need to in thier current contract. But if you are not there next season why would they bother going the extra mile or risking injury this close to the end of the season when you may be elsewhere in the summer. I know that this is what happens with loanees on ICT limited budget, but is hardly a recipe for progression and future improvement. I also agree with other posters that the entire team and management have the remaining games to make us best of the rest and convince a lot of people to renew season tickets or pay as you go next season.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

There is only one Mann4thejob !!

As far as I am concerned and at the risk of repeating myself - this season has been a feckin shambles from the pre season onwards. We were totally caught cold by the early start and were rushed in to some "panic buys" and some very reactive "loanees". We were well and truly left stuck in the blocks. We have had more than our share of injuries and mishaps but the selections have been far too reactive and changeable. You do not get self confidence or team spirit when there is apparent favouritism for some but the acute "chop" fer others. As others have stated we are more like a band of mercenaries than a Highland regiment - and there is a good link there to Terry and Prince Charlie !!

I actually think that we do have the potential to be an attractive side but we have to be consistent all round and we have to adopt a "system" and stick to it - tactically and positionally - and that is the one "task" that I am not shure that Terry and Mo can provide.

Whether anyone wants him there or not he will be - and I agree.

But he has to bring about improvement all round. He has to start working this out NOW and deciding who HE is going to tag along and who he is going to bring on board. And lets cut out the Top Six shittt next season rite now - it is mid table, early survival that we should be aiming fer. TB can keep his favourites but he has no excuses next season.

I may well be harsh but I actually feel that TB was assisted by some of the injuries/suspensions this season as it gave him reason, at times, to chop and change.

[Kingsmills]

I was dubious when we appointed Butcher in the first place. There's no doubt that he was a wonderful player but, as a manager he had one good season as a manager with Motherwell but failed dismally at Coventry, Sunderland, Brentford and in Sydney. Similarly Malpas had the same good season in (assistant) management but always failed elsewhere when a manager in his own right.

There is no doubt that in his first season there was an initial "Butcher Bounce" but that soon ended and having taken us out of the relegation place he contrived to lead us back below a frankly poor Falkirk team who demonstrated quite how bad they were by taking the drop themselves the following year. There were some bizarre selection decisions along the way; who realyy thought that it made sense to play an out of form and lacking in confidence Michael Fraser ahead of Ryan Esson in those crucial relegation encounters ?

The following season he was fully supported by the board. Despite savage cuts elsewhere in the company, he was allowed to retain the core of the SPL squad. Assisted by an on fire Adam Rooney and Dundee's implossion on and off the pitch, he has to be given credit for getting us straight back up. Last season was satisfactory again, in no small measure to Messrs Rooney and Hayes.

This season he was given carte blanche to reshape the team and was ruthless in weilding the axe. County's debut in the SPL is in no small measure due to the rock at the back who is Grant Munro.

I know we have been unlucky with injuries but which of the new recruits has been an outstanding success ? In my opinion the best of the new bunch by far was David Davies and such was Butcher's influence on him he chose to ply his trade at the foot of League one in England than to remain in the Highlands.

I am not calling for a change just now but unless there is a dramatic improvement by January I fear that the First Division beckons again.

[starchief]

failed dismally at Coventry, Sunderland, Brentford and in Sydney

I just don't get how people can say he failed at Coventry. It was a major shock when he sacked as Coventry were doing well, yet bringing in money. He was sacked and they crashed into the relegation zone.

In Sunderland, he was average. For Brentford and Sydney, he ony had half a season. Did pretty badly but then, didn't many ICT fans want him sacked during the first half of SFL1, when it looked like there was no way he could get us promoted with the terrible results we were having?

You could argue the last two but it was a mistake by Coventry to sack him.

[tm4tj]

Who is this Butcher they speak of?

Is he right for the job..........not on present form that's for sure. We could not go through a whole season on this form. Something needs to change.

[bishbashbosh]

I was dubious when we appointed Butcher in the first place. There's no doubt that he was a wonderful player but, as a manager he had one good season as a manager with Motherwell but failed dismally at Coventry, Sunderland, Brentford and in Sydney. Similarly Malpas had the same good season in (assistant) management but always failed elsewhere when a manager in his own right.

There is no doubt that in his first season there was an initial "Butcher Bounce" but that soon ended and having taken us out of the relegation place he contrived to lead us back below a frankly poor Falkirk team who demonstrated quite how bad they were by taking the drop themselves the following year. There were some bizarre selection decisions along the way; who realyy thought that it made sense to play an out of form and lacking in confidence Michael Fraser ahead of Ryan Esson in those crucial relegation encounters ?

The following season he was fully supported by the board. Despite savage cuts elsewhere in the company, he was allowed to retain the core of the SPL squad. Assisted by an on fire Adam Rooney and Dundee's implossion on and off the pitch, he has to be given credit for getting us straight back up. Last season was satisfactory again, in no small measure to Messrs Rooney and Hayes.

This season he was given carte blanche to reshape the team and was ruthless in weilding the axe. County's debut in the SPL is in no small measure due to the rock at the back who is Grant Munro.

I know we have been unlucky with injuries but which of the new recruits has been an outstanding success ? In my opinion the best of the new bunch by far was David Davies and such was Butcher's influence on him he chose to ply his trade at the foot of League one in England than to remain in the Highlands.

I am not calling for a change just now but unless there is a dramatic improvement by January I fear that the First Division beckons again.

the last 2-3 games i have seen wolves play on match of the day davies was playing. foot of premiership not league one

wolves squad from bbc

Wolverhampton Wanderers Squad

Midfielders

1. 4 Edwards
   
2. 7 Kightly
   
3. 8 Henry
   
4. 12 Hunt
   
5. 15 Frimpong
   
6. 17 Jarvis
   
7. 20 Milijas
   
8. 22 Jonsson
   
9. 24 O'Hara
   
10. 26 Davis
    
11. 37 Forde
    
12. 41 Price
    
13. 46 Gorman
    
14. 48 McGroary
    
15. Jones
    

[PaderbornCaley]

All this drivel because we lost 1-0 at home to the team with the best away record in the SPL, and then after we boss and batter Hibs, who score with all 3 shots they have in the entire game, and we created loads of chances but luck wasnt their today.

All this 'drivel' not because of 2 games, but because of a whole seasons worth.

[+DoofersDad]

The difference between success and failure is a thin line. This forum is awash with negativity at the moment as a result of 2 very disappointing defeats but things could have been very different. After a stirring win at Aberdeen we were very poor against St Johnstone but could easily have won: we had the better chances, we hit the bar and 2 penalty incidents went the wrong way. We played much better against Hibs, again having more chances but simply failing to take them. We could and should have won that but were unlucky to be up against a side who managed to take their chances when they came. We could easily have been reflecting on 9 points in 9 days and the talk would have been about whether we could equal our highest ever finish for the 2nd season in a row.

And to some extent, I think this sums up our season. We have not had the rub of the green. Penalty decisions have gone against us, red card decisions have gone against us and there are certainly far more times we drew or lost games we should have won than the other way round. Our well documented injury problems have obviously not helped the cause. What I am saying here is that we nearly have a very good side and if the luck had been with us over the season as much as it has been against us then we would be in the top six. No, it is not just the last 2 games fortune has not been on our side, it is the whole season.

But before I am pounced on for being a happy clapper (if only some others would clap their team a bit more often) I have to say that to some extent, you make your own luck. Losing games you should have won is not just down to luck, it is about the other team scoring more goals than you. There has been some poor defending and undoubtedly injuries have not helped here. The defence more than any other part of the team needs to work as a unit and that needs consistency of team selection. But even when players are available, Butcher switches things around just because someone makes an error one week. He seems to have no faith in any line up and then slates them when things go wrong. It's hardly going to help the players to be composed in their role at the back. Butcher must take responsibility for that. And whilst on the subject of defenders, there can be little doubt that we are a poorer side without Munro and Butcher must take responsibility for him not being here.

But it is not the defence that is the real problem, it is the attack. To some extent (but not much) I have sympathy with Butcher here. Everyone says that being an effective striker is a confidence thing (look at Torres and Carroll in England!) and that you need to let your strikers have a decent run in the side and the goals will come. Butcher has done that with Tade and MacKay but unfortunately the goals have not come. But in fairness to the players, part of that is simply the wrong tactics. Tade is too wide and long balls are hoofed up to Mackay - poor lad doesn;t have a chance. What Mackay needs is balls on the deck and he so nearly scored a good goal on Sunday when Hayes played him in with a cracking through ball. More service like that and I am sure MacKay will score. If Tade is playing he needs to be the target with Mackay playing off him.

And I don't for the life of me understand why Butcher plays Sutherland the way he does. I think he could play the Rooney role well. He's often got a good first touch, he can hold the ball up and he can turn and shoot well. Play him as the target with MacKay playing off him and we'll do better. Bring Tade on as an impact sub to terrorise tiring defences and he'll always keep a couple of defenders busy when the opposition is trying to chase the game. And what of Winnall? Who knows? He just isn't given the chance which seems extraordinary given the lack of goals in recent weeks. We may not have the greatest strikers in the league but Butcher is certainly not making the best use of them.

I don't think there is much wrong with the midfield and I think the number of chances we have created over the season bears witness to that. But again we seem to get change for change's sake and are never quite sure what the team is going to be. The players need consistency to avoid there being too much pressure on them and so that they can gel. By the way, I think there is too much criticism on here of Tansey. Whilst he has been hugely disappointing with his free kicks, he plays some pretty inteligent balls and a lot of the chances we create involve him in the build up. He's not the best we've ever had, but we've had worse.

So whilst as I say, we are nearly a good team, we've still got a little way to go. Yes we have not enjoyed the best of luck, but for me, the biggest reason is down to the manager. I think he has done well to bring in the quality of player he has, given the financial constraints he is working under (a point people tend to forget), but he is not making the best use of the players once he gets them. His team selections are irratic, his tactics can be naiive and his substitutions can be baffling. I don't get the sense that team spirit is particularly good and that is hardly surprising given the lack of consistency around selection and the extent to which players are asked to play out of position and are then publicly castigated when it doesn't work. He also seems to be stubborn and can't see when he is wrong - and one suspects he does not tolerate the players suggesting he might be wrong once in a while.

There is no doubt that Butcher is a charismatic figure and I am sure he is a great asset to the club in terms of profile, but in terms of his managerial credentials there are huge question marks. Given my criticism of him here, it is almost surprising that we are not struggling below Dunfermline at the foot of the table. But the fact that we could still end up comfortably in mid table indicates that there are several things he gets right.

For me the jury is still out. As far as this season is concerned, I think we should write it off as one to forget but I think the Board should be concerned and should be sitting down with Butcher and Malpas to discuss certain issues. This season was meant to be the start of a new approach but it is fair to say that it has been derailed to some extent by factors outwith his control. It is highly unlikely that we will be as unlucky next season as we have been this. I expect us to do better next season and I will reserve my judgement on whether Butcher is the man for the job until this time next season.

[bishbashbosh]

The difference between success and failure is a thin line. This forum is awash with negativity at the moment as a result of 2 very disappointing defeats but things could have been very different. After a stirring win at Aberdeen we were very poor against St Johnstone but could easily have won: we had the better chances, we hit the bar and 2 penalty incidents went the wrong way. We played much better against Hibs, again having more chances but simply failing to take them. We could and should have won that but were unlucky to be up against a side who managed to take their chances when they came. We could easily have been reflecting on 9 points in 9 days and the talk would have been about whether we could equal our highest ever finish for the 2nd season in a row.

And to some extent, I think this sums up our season. We have not had the rub of the green. Penalty decisions have gone against us, red card decisions have gone against us and there are certainly far more times we drew or lost games we should have won than the other way round. Our well documented injury problems have obviously not helped the cause. What I am saying here is that we nearly have a very good side and if the luck had been with us over the season as much as it has been against us then we would be in the top six. No, it is not just the last 2 games fortune has not been on our side, it is the whole season.

But before I am pounced on for being a happy clapper (if only some others would clap their team a bit more often) I have to say that to some extent, you make your own luck. Losing games you should have won is not just down to luck, it is about the other team scoring more goals than you. There has been some poor defending and undoubtedly injuries have not helped here. The defence more than any other part of the team needs to work as a unit and that needs consistency of team selection. But even when players are available, Butcher switches things around just because someone makes an error one week. He seems to have no faith in any line up and then slates them when things go wrong. It's hardly going to help the players to be composed in their role at the back. Butcher must take responsibility for that. And whilst on the subject of defenders, there can be little doubt that we are a poorer side without Munro and Butcher must take responsibility for him not being here.

But it is not the defence that is the real problem, it is the attack. To some extent (but not much) I have sympathy with Butcher here. Everyone says that being an effective striker is a confidence thing (look at Torres and Carroll in England!) and that you need to let your strikers have a decent run in the side and the goals will come. Butcher has done that with Tade and MacKay but unfortunately the goals have not come. But in fairness to the players, part of that is simply the wrong tactics. Tade is too wide and long balls are hoofed up to Mackay - poor lad doesn;t have a chance. What Mackay needs is balls on the deck and he so nearly scored a good goal on Sunday when Hayes played him in with a cracking through ball. More service like that and I am sure MacKay will score. If Tade is playing he needs to be the target with Mackay playing off him.

And I don't for the life of me understand why Butcher plays Sutherland the way he does. I think he could play the Rooney role well. He's often got a good first touch, he can hold the ball up and he can turn and shoot well. Play him as the target with MacKay playing off him and we'll do better. Bring Tade on as an impact sub to terrorise tiring defences and he'll always keep a couple of defenders busy when the opposition is trying to chase the game. And what of Winnall? Who knows? He just isn't given the chance which seems extraordinary given the lack of goals in recent weeks. We may not have the greatest strikers in the league but Butcher is certainly not making the best use of them.

I don't think there is much wrong with the midfield and I think the number of chances we have created over the season bears witness to that. But again we seem to get change for change's sake and are never quite sure what the team is going to be. The players need consistency to avoid there being too much pressure on them and so that they can gel. By the way, I think there is too much criticism on here of Tansey. Whilst he has been hugely disappointing with his free kicks, he plays some pretty inteligent balls and a lot of the chances we create involve him in the build up. He's not the best we've ever had, but we've had worse.

So whilst as I say, we are nearly a good team, we've still got a little way to go. Yes we have not enjoyed the best of luck, but for me, the biggest reason is down to the manager. I think he has done well to bring in the quality of player he has, given the financial constraints he is working under (a point people tend to forget), but he is not making the best use of the players once he gets them. His team selections are irratic, his tactics can be naiive and his substitutions can be baffling. I don't get the sense that team spirit is particularly good and that is hardly surprising given the lack of consistency around selection and the extent to which players are asked to play out of position and are then publicly castigated when it doesn't work. He also seems to be stubborn and can't see when he is wrong - and one suspects he does not tolerate the players suggesting he might be wrong once in a while.

There is no doubt that Butcher is a charismatic figure and I am sure he is a great asset to the club in terms of profile, but in terms of his managerial credentials there are huge question marks. Given my criticism of him here, it is almost surprising that we are not struggling below Dunfermline at the foot of the table. But the fact that we could still end up comfortably in mid table indicates that there are several things he gets right.

For me the jury is still out. As far as this season is concerned, I think we should write it off as one to forget but I think the Board should be concerned and should be sitting down with Butcher and Malpas to discuss certain issues. This season was meant to be the start of a new approach but it is fair to say that it has been derailed to some extent by factors outwith his control. It is highly unlikely that we will be as unlucky next season as we have been this. I expect us to do better next season and I will reserve my judgement on whether Butcher is the man for the job until this time next season.

lots of " if my auntie had balls she would be my uncle" in here i am afraid

and

And I don't for the life of me understand why Butcher plays Sutherland the way he does. I think he could play the Rooney role well. He's often got a good first touch, he can hold the ball up and he can turn and shoot well.

is this sutherland a new signing outside the transfer window.

the one i watch on a saturday has a terrible touch, never has the ball completely under control, running with ball it always is behind him and he has to try and dig it out from under his feet. looses possesion most of the time.

and............. shooting dont make me laugh, one shot against celtic does not make up for the times he blasts over the bar or misses target by yards.

every times he makes a mistake he then jumps of the ground and thumps his fists into his thighs instead of chasing back to try and retrieve possesion. whats that all about.

only seems to get a game when we are short of recognised players

sorry to "pounce" nothing personal

[+DoofersDad]

lots of " if my auntie had balls she would be my uncle" in here i am afraid

and

And I don't for the life of me understand why Butcher plays Sutherland the way he does. I think he could play the Rooney role well. He's often got a good first touch, he can hold the ball up and he can turn and shoot well.

is this sutherland a new signing outside the transfer window.

the one i watch on a saturday has a terrible touch, never has the ball completely under control, running with ball it always is behind him and he has to try and dig it out from under his feet. looses possesion most of the time.

and............. shooting dont make me laugh, one shot against celtic does not make up for the times he blasts over the bar or misses target by yards.

every times he makes a mistake he then jumps of the ground and thumps his fists into his thighs instead of chasing back to try and retrieve possesion. whats that all about.

only seems to get a game when we are short of recognised players

sorry to "pounce" nothing personal

Silly analogy - your Auntie will never have balls and will never be your Uncle, but if we could only improve a little bit in one or two areas then we could be comfortably mid table or even a little above.

Sutherland seems to get worse every time I see him and he obviously gets frustrated. That is because he is being played out of position and makes errors in doing a role he shouldn't be doing. It doesn't help the players confidence to constantly criticise them when the problem is that the manager is playing them out of position. When Sutherland first came into the team he looked keen and full of promise. He now looks frustrated and anxious and it's a waste of his considerable talent.

[Renegade]

The elusive 4-5-1 formation. Long balls aimlessly punted forward. Lone frontmen who weren't built for the role constantly played no-matter what. Talented established players disappearing. Players being played despite week after week of sub-standard performances. Players looking bereft of confidence. Team playing without bite or flair. Manager picking his favourites no-matter what. Substitutions made far too late. Substitutions made in the ninetieth minute while desperately needing a goal. David Proctor always in the squad, despite being rubbish. Manager blaming everyone but himself for poor performances.....Oh sorry, I was talking about Brewster!

Is the Butcher the man for the job? I really don't know. In my opinion, this man has made far too many changes than was necessary. There's no doubt that getting rid of Munro was the worst decision ever made any ICT manager. The defence was pretty good last season - it's been awful this season. Oh and by the way, County's is great this season, funny that..... Butcher's got some people eating out of his hand, but really where is this club going? Backwards is the only gear right now. I reckon that it all comes down to Christmas and the club is in the same position this December or worst of all, has gone backwards, then it will be time for him to stand aside. One thing I will say though, when Butcher signed a new deal in 2009 I said it would all end in tears. I see no reason why in the end I won't be proved correct.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Renegade

[+DoofersDad]

right tbh i cant be arsed with this im fighting a battle im not going to win. from now on im just never going to defend butcher, the players or aything to do with ict. adios

I hope you don't mean that Luke. Your support and enthusiasm for the club are a breath of fresh air on this site and I'm sure most folk on this site agree with much of what you say. We could do with a lot more like you.

There are some on here who for reasons best known to themselves are only happy when they are moaning and can't seem to say a good word about the club. Don't despair. Just ignore them. They may not ever agree with you but you will be winning the argument to the large number of folk who read the forum but who rarely contribute to it. As long as you say your piece it doesn't matter who has the last word - it's what you say that matters, not how many times you say it.

This forum needs a range of views and that includes criticism when criticism is due. But criticism should be objective and constructive and when it is there can be a sensible exchange of views. I have been very critical of Butcher in a post above and you are just the sort of person I would welcome coming back with comments to defend him if you think I have been unfair.

[ICTodd]

The difference between success and failure is a thin line. This forum is awash with negativity at the moment as a result of 2 very disappointing defeats but things could have been very different. After a stirring win at Aberdeen we were very poor against St Johnstone but could easily have won: we had the better chances, we hit the bar and 2 penalty incidents went the wrong way. We played much better against Hibs, again having more chances but simply failing to take them. We could and should have won that but were unlucky to be up against a side who managed to take their chances when they came. We could easily have been reflecting on 9 points in 9 days and the talk would have been about whether we could equal our highest ever finish for the 2nd season in a row.

And to some extent, I think this sums up our season. We have not had the rub of the green. Penalty decisions have gone against us, red card decisions have gone against us and there are certainly far more times we drew or lost games we should have won than the other way round. Our well documented injury problems have obviously not helped the cause. What I am saying here is that we nearly have a very good side and if the luck had been with us over the season as much as it has been against us then we would be in the top six. No, it is not just the last 2 games fortune has not been on our side, it is the whole season.

But before I am pounced on for being a happy clapper (if only some others would clap their team a bit more often) I have to say that to some extent, you make your own luck. Losing games you should have won is not just down to luck, it is about the other team scoring more goals than you. There has been some poor defending and undoubtedly injuries have not helped here. The defence more than any other part of the team needs to work as a unit and that needs consistency of team selection. But even when players are available, Butcher switches things around just because someone makes an error one week. He seems to have no faith in any line up and then slates them when things go wrong. It's hardly going to help the players to be composed in their role at the back. Butcher must take responsibility for that. And whilst on the subject of defenders, there can be little doubt that we are a poorer side without Munro and Butcher must take responsibility for him not being here.

But it is not the defence that is the real problem, it is the attack. To some extent (but not much) I have sympathy with Butcher here. Everyone says that being an effective striker is a confidence thing (look at Torres and Carroll in England!) and that you need to let your strikers have a decent run in the side and the goals will come. Butcher has done that with Tade and MacKay but unfortunately the goals have not come. But in fairness to the players, part of that is simply the wrong tactics. Tade is too wide and long balls are hoofed up to Mackay - poor lad doesn;t have a chance. What Mackay needs is balls on the deck and he so nearly scored a good goal on Sunday when Hayes played him in with a cracking through ball. More service like that and I am sure MacKay will score. If Tade is playing he needs to be the target with Mackay playing off him.

And I don't for the life of me understand why Butcher plays Sutherland the way he does. I think he could play the Rooney role well. He's often got a good first touch, he can hold the ball up and he can turn and shoot well. Play him as the target with MacKay playing off him and we'll do better. Bring Tade on as an impact sub to terrorise tiring defences and he'll always keep a couple of defenders busy when the opposition is trying to chase the game. And what of Winnall? Who knows? He just isn't given the chance which seems extraordinary given the lack of goals in recent weeks. We may not have the greatest strikers in the league but Butcher is certainly not making the best use of them.

I don't think there is much wrong with the midfield and I think the number of chances we have created over the season bears witness to that. But again we seem to get change for change's sake and are never quite sure what the team is going to be. The players need consistency to avoid there being too much pressure on them and so that they can gel. By the way, I think there is too much criticism on here of Tansey. Whilst he has been hugely disappointing with his free kicks, he plays some pretty inteligent balls and a lot of the chances we create involve him in the build up. He's not the best we've ever had, but we've had worse.

So whilst as I say, we are nearly a good team, we've still got a little way to go. Yes we have not enjoyed the best of luck, but for me, the biggest reason is down to the manager. I think he has done well to bring in the quality of player he has, given the financial constraints he is working under (a point people tend to forget), but he is not making the best use of the players once he gets them. His team selections are irratic, his tactics can be naiive and his substitutions can be baffling. I don't get the sense that team spirit is particularly good and that is hardly surprising given the lack of consistency around selection and the extent to which players are asked to play out of position and are then publicly castigated when it doesn't work. He also seems to be stubborn and can't see when he is wrong - and one suspects he does not tolerate the players suggesting he might be wrong once in a while.

There is no doubt that Butcher is a charismatic figure and I am sure he is a great asset to the club in terms of profile, but in terms of his managerial credentials there are huge question marks. Given my criticism of him here, it is almost surprising that we are not struggling below Dunfermline at the foot of the table. But the fact that we could still end up comfortably in mid table indicates that there are several things he gets right.

For me the jury is still out. As far as this season is concerned, I think we should write it off as one to forget but I think the Board should be concerned and should be sitting down with Butcher and Malpas to discuss certain issues. This season was meant to be the start of a new approach but it is fair to say that it has been derailed to some extent by factors outwith his control. It is highly unlikely that we will be as unlucky next season as we have been this. I expect us to do better next season and I will reserve my judgement on whether Butcher is the man for the job until this time next season.

Great post, it's nice to see an analytical argument rather than reactive which I myself have been guilty of sometimes.

To me I see Butcher as exactly that, a butcher of a good ICT squad. No doubt there is talent in there but his use of tactics and man management have often been deplorable. As for injuries, I often wonder if this has something to do with training as we all remember Brewsters extra work training sometimes hindered progress due to players becoming more susceptible to injuries as a result of it.

I can't see what he see's in McKay and Tade as he claims to not like the long ball game but week after week it becomes exactly that game for us. Once you cross that white line yes it's in the players hands, but 15 minutes in the middle is precisely the time where you should be drilling it into them it is not acceptable. These are two 'strikers' who can barely strike a bar door.

But the midfield are to blame also as if there is no service to the front two then they can't do their job, so why are the midfield looked at as to be pretty good? They are also responsible for taking the pressure off the back four, it's a tough job, and they are not doing it. We have Foran who spends more time screaming than passing, and Tansey who would be better off kicking in rugby. The posts are a lot higher for him to aim at. I cannot defend Tansey at all. Favouritism has crept into this squad horribly this season for these four players mentioned and that is Butchers fault.

And the back four comes down to The Munro equation. ICT - Munro = a poor poor excuse for a defensive team. Butcher was a defender by trade but seems to have forgotten everything about it.

There is a huge huge huge part of this season that has come down to Dunfermline and a season spent looking over our shoulders to see how they are doing. Also Butchers talk of top 6. It's a bad bad way to spend a season. Right now if we survive then Butcher has to take a look at HIMSELF as well as the team and additions to that team. If nothing by the start of the season and into December has been done then I'm afraid he's for the chop (way!)

[absent friend]

It is obvious from most postings above that the answer to ICT staying in the lower reaches of the SPL rather than top six is ..... Mr Munro.

You know the one that plays in the SFL, great defender and wonderful attacker - through the middle or wing play - just magic!!

Dream on folks!! Grantie is a super team player but if he is/was as good as you make out he would be playing not up with the tinkies, or the Old Firm BUT in the EPL along with Davis. I think the offerings above is a matter of Highland hearts ruling Highland heads.

Now Butcher . . my biggest disappointment with him was after this last game. He should learn from the real touchline pros like Fergie/Moyes and Co ... NEVER NAME NAMES IN PUBLIC! A BIG sign of weak management!

Compare this to the dying managerial days of Calderwood at Aberdeen and see how this trait of naming players in the press, was resorted to, prior to his 'leaving'. An Aberdeen player who he named as not fit to wear the top was being heralded, by him, as the teams' saviour the following week!

Butcher will either have to do this (eat humble pie) or have the players he named sit it out in the next games or end up with egg on his managerial face as they are all named on his next team sheets!

Of course Butcher is the man for the job, we cannot get better, even if he makes mistakes, BUT he will have to man up and say his piece away from the press.