Attendances at Caledonian Stadium

[Guest CALEY108]

Surely we should now start seeing a vast improvement on our average attendance being an established SPL club and the population of Inversneck ever increasing

Still feel that on general our attendences are on the low side is this because;

1 The location of the stadium?

2 There is still a large number of ex caley and jag fans that don't attend?

3 Other reasons?

Any views? :024:

[Guest TinCanFan]

I know a few ex caley and thistle fans still stay away though they are still a very small minority but the main group of people who don't attend go to Glasgow every week to support either of the Old Firm. 

[Guest paynis69]

reason 1: rangers

reason 2: celtic

too many numptys in the town are still supporting the old squirm. i dont see the atraction they only get to about two games a season.

have they forgoton about what supporting a team means? to me it means looking forward all week to going to the game on a saturday, getting a few pints in pre match, singing yer heart out at the game, supporting the locals and getting one over on the hey jimmies etc etc.

to them it means watching it on setanta then having their endless debate with the fans of the opposite side of the old firm, then they start spewing out religious tosh that they dont even understand or truly beleive, although they think they do.

i wish they would bring classes into schools to educate kids to support the local club

[Charles Bannerman]

Forget the "large number" of ex Caley and Thistle refuseniks.... they are a drop in the ocean and, 13 years on, of negligible significance in this debate.

Towards the end of their existences, Thistle's and Caley's combined core support was around 600. Only a small minority became refuseniks and I suspect that a number of these have slipped back into the fold. Of the hard liners, a fair number will have moved away from Inverness or indeed in 13 years have passed away.

I really think that the number of people currently within travelling distance of the Caledonian Stadium who used to be regular Howden Enders/ Jaggies and who could attend but don't because they still disapprove of the merger is very small indeed.

I think a far, FAR bigger limiting factor on ICT attendances is the number of people who go to watch the Old Firm instead. It was inevitable that, when there was no national league side in Inverness, local fans would support other leading teams... especially the OF. As a result there has always been a substantial OF support which will take a number of years to whittle down and will never entirely do so because of the significant Glory Hunter factor. When ICT got into the lower leagues, it was still perfectly straightforward to have an OF club as your Big Team and ICT as your Wee Team. But when ICT got into the SPL this posed a dilemma for a few people... some jumped one way, some the other. ICT's best hope is that, over time, "new" support - ie the younger generation - will go to them to a greater and greater extent.

As far as the location of the stadium is concerned, I do agree it's not particularly accessible, but having studied the original 1993 document examining the long list of 13 sites, it did really come down to East Longman and Stratton Farm. There were major objections to the other 11 sites - for instance the cost of land at Inshes was prohibitive. I don't intend to go into the relative economic cases for these two sites, that's not under discussion here, but I could argue that Stratton Farm is even less accessible than East Longman.

As for classes in schools to educate kids in the direction of the local club, I have to say I have had a "Supercaleygoballisitccelticareatrocious" poster on my classroom wall since February 9th 2000, but of course it is the function of the education system to help youngsters to make decisions for themselves. Don't forget, though, that Team ICT has a significant input to local schools.

[EWS]

I think with the club putting on a bus from the city centre, Longman isn't that inaccessable, and I have certainly been to more stadiums that are harder to get to.

[Charles Bannerman]

The problem is that "a bus", even a double decker with perhaps 90 people, would only be a drop in the ocean. Even 20 buses would not shift the 2000 which might constitute a major upward hike in attendance.

[Kingsmills]

I agree that the number who refuse to attend due opposition to the merger is very small indeed, nowhere close to three figures in my opinion.

The lure of the Old Firm is a much greater factor as indeed must be ticket prices in excess of ?20. Much cheaper to take the children to the cinema where some sort of entertainment can be guaranteed in much more comfortable surroundings.

I,m not sure that the location is a huge factor. After all the stadium is no further from the town thatn the retail park which seems to be packed on a saturday afternoon.

[Charles Bannerman]

"Nowhere close to three figures"... agreed.

On the subject of ticket prices, as someone who doesn't have to pay to get into matches (because it's in line of work) I'm a bit reluctant to comment. However the cost of maintaining a squad of 24 plus a number of other backup staff is high againt only one earning opportunity per fortnight so prices will as a result also be high. If income were to be maintained in an environment where prices were reduced, demand for tickets would have to be sufficiently elastic for attendances to increase enough to compensate for the reduced unit price.

[Scotty]

the cost of maintaining a squad of 24 plus a number of other backup staff is high againt only one earning opportunity per fortnight so prices will as a result also be high.

when I received my set of accounts this week, ahead of the AGM, It was heartening to note that staff costs have actually decreased whilst staffing levels have increased. not sure if this is because of less bonuses last season or something else but it does suggest that the club administration have this under as much control as they can.

There are many factors affecting attendances and each of them has some effect .... some of the effects are minimal, other could be significant - all we can do or urge the club to do is to try and put a good side on the pitch and make the idea of watching a game at the TCS as enjoyable as possible.

In no particular order, here is my list of factors that I think affects atttendances.

1. Invernessians who leave the area to support OF or other teams.

2. 'Highland apathy'.

3. Cost of tickets/travel.

4. Location.

5. Merger 'refuseniks'.

6. Perceived lack of 'value for money'.

7. The 'experience' - over officious stewarding etc.

[CaleyD]

Disagree on the point about access to Stratton Farm.  Smithton/Culloden has, and always has had one of the most regular bus services in Inverness.  It is also lies on routes which take in the greatest part of the city.

Craig Dunain to Balloch via Torvean, City Centre, Retail Park, Smithton & Culloden (would have started/ended at Highfield at time of merger) (and reverse route)

Craig Dunain to Culloden via Scorguie, Grant Street, Town Centre, Raigmore, Cradlehall & Smithton (and reverse route)

8 buses/hour leaving the city centre which would pass by Stratton Farm (or as near as that makes no difference)

That's not counting the regular bus services coming in the A96 from Elgin/Aberdeen etc.

These services haven't changed much in the last 15 years, but even if the were half what they are now it is still far more than was ever going to happen for the current site.

You can argue that the Stratton site wasn't suitable for any number of reasons, but access is definitely not one of them.

Fact of life, people in general are lazy and they expect to be able to go door to door without to much effort these days.  The current site may not be "inaccessible" but it is a hassle for most folk, especially those who don't have a car.  Comparing TCS to the Retail Park is nonsense IMO as it has 6 buses every hour that leave the town and go there.

There are many contributing factors when it comes to attendance, some of them that can be resolved and some that can't.  We are kinda stuck with our current location unless we receive a hefty cash windfall, and even then finding an alrernative site would be even harder today than it was 15 years ago and we'd likely find ourselves pushed North/South along the A9 or East along the A96.  The club could however look at a better match day bus service taking in several parts of the City.

Other contributing factors include....

Those who have previous allegiance to other clubs - this is something which will only be overcome in time.

Price - I honestly believe that there is scope for initiatives on this front, the club just have to be willing to stick with them long enough for them to take proper effect.  Even if that means a short term drop in income.

PR - Something which ICT are shockingly bad at.

Treatment of fans - Stewarding issues, handling of complaints and the "corporates come first" mentality only serve to p!ss the fans off on a regular basis.

Car Parking - Nuff Said...lol

Lack of Protection from the elements at the stadium - location isn't great but some kind of fourth structure, even a narrow vertical building with offices on the West Side would offer up some protection.

Style/Quality of Football - Under Pele you always knew you were going to be entertained win, lose or draw.  Under Robbo and Brewster we were boring.  CC seems to be trying to introduce more entertainment back into the squad but it isn't working (yet).

TV - The single biggest contributing factor to lower attendances, not just for us, but across the game in this country as a whole.  In the past if a person moved to a new area they either traveled to watch their old team or they got their fix by going to local games, nowadays they just sit at home/go to the pub and watch it on the TV.  The additional income is welcomed by clubs but it is killing attendances like nothing else in existence.  They can't have it both ways.

I'm sure there are more, that's just the "biggies" that come to mind just now.

[The Mantis]

I suppose we haven't had this debate for a few months.....

My tuppence worth- you can only blame the OF up to a point. Clubs such as Kilmarnock, St Mirren, Motherwell and DUFC are nearer to Glasgow but have significantly larger core supports.

I put this down to 3 things:

First, ICT is a young club and we have to look for the first generation of ICT fans to produce more ICT fans. There should probably be a 'humping' smiley to insert here but this one will do  :pram:

Second, Inverness strikes me as a very prosperous place with a large middle class demographic. This leads into discussions of the famous 'Highland Reserve' (which is not something out of a bottle). The four mentioned above are post-industrial places with loads of schemies whose football club is one of the few things to get excited about. The ones who stayed away because of the merger may have numbered only a few dozen but they're the ones who would not have been embarrassed starting a bit of chanting at the TCS.

Third, location of TCS.

[+Wanderer]

Other contributing factors include....

Those who have previous allegiance to other clubs - this is something which will only be overcome in time.

Price - I honestly believe that there is scope for initiatives on this front, the club just have to be willing to stick with them long enough for them to take proper effect.  Even if that means a short term drop in income.

PR - Something which ICT are shockingly bad at.

Treatment of fans - Stewarding issues, handling of complaints and the "corporates come first" mentality only serve to p!ss the fans off on a regular basis.

Car Parking - Nuff Said...lol

Lack of Protection from the elements at the stadium - location isn't great but some kind of fourth structure, even a narrow vertical building with offices on the West Side would offer up some protection.

Style/Quality of Football - Under Pele you always knew you were going to be entertained win, lose or draw.  Under Robbo and Brewster we were boring.  CC seems to be trying to introduce more entertainment back into the squad but it isn't working (yet).

TV - The single biggest contributing factor to lower attendances, not just for us, but across the game in this country as a whole.  In the past if a person moved to a new area they either traveled to watch their old team or they got their fix by going to local games, nowadays they just sit at home/go to the pub and watch it on the TV.  The additional income is welcomed by clubs but it is killing attendances like nothing else in existence.  They can't have it both ways.

I'm sure there are more, that's just the "biggies" that come to mind just now.

CaleyD - one of your best posts! Well done sir.

My time away from ICT coincides with our top flight adventure...the contrast in fans' treatment is the BIG factor that I've been painfully aware of. What must new fans think when they get nabbed for standing up to applaud the team taking the field?

Not the fitba' game I recognise! But one I'm going to stick with...

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

I too agree with the fat ******* but have to say that I find that the stewards have been very keen to get to know me better.

[Kingsmills]

I'm not suggesting that it's not necessary to maintain ticket prices as high as they are to finance the expensive business of full time football in he SPL. Nor am I convinced that a modest reduction would increase attendances greatly.

Nevertheless, the prospect of having to fork out fifty quid to take a couple of kids to the football must be having an effect on the crowds.

[RossP]

As for classes in schools to educate kids in the direction of the local club, I have to say I have had a "Supercaleygoballisitccelticareatrocious" poster on my classroom wall since February 9th 2000, but of course it is the function of the education system to help youngsters to make decisions for themselves. Don't forget, though, that Team ICT has a significant input to local schools.

I've also got a ICT poster in my classroom. Trying my best to influence the Aberdonian kids not to support their local team  :015:

[Guest Yorkshire_ICT]

I'm hoping to make it up to a few games this season so you can add another one.

:sherlock2:

[caleyboy]

..... Don't forget, though, that Team ICT has a significant input to local schools.

I don't think Team ICT has anywhere near sufficient staff to make an impact Charles. I stand to be corrected but I am told they only have 2 f/t coaches and a great deal of their time is spent behind VDU's.

[Guest ICT]

Nevertheless, the prospect of having to fork out fifty quid to take a couple of kids to the football must be having an effect on the crowds.

Hit the nail on the head there as far as I'm concerned. An adult season ticket holder in the Main Stand, who's 2 kids fancy coming along to see what it's all about, would be forking out at least ?40 to get them in. In the North Stand it's at least ?30. That's in addition to what said adult has already paid as part of his season ticket.

I've no problem with the club charging a fair bit for kids for type 'A' games against the OF, as those games sell out so you wouldn't want too many seats sold at hugely discounted prices. However, for type 'B' games the prices for children who might want to "give it a try" are unrealistic. There will probably be several thousand unoccupied seats at that game, so lets sell them off cheap to get the kids in and blood the next generation of ICT supporters.

[ictewd]

ICT you are spot on---------- recently saw an article in the Herald which illustrated the increase of football crowds in Germany. The cost of a Season ticket for instance at Dortmund for the STANDING SECTION behind the goal ( capacity 27,000 ) is about ?100, and the fans can expect to pay about ?10 on the day, with the family being encouraged by the reduced price structure. so at Dortmund ( lovely stadium by the way with beer available ) there will be approx 70,000 fans while about 20 miles along the road where Shalke 04 play there will be another 50-60,000 attending. Have a look at Germany attendances next season, and even at the end for seemingly meaningless games the turnout is huge. It is all down to Fan power whereby they are consulted on any price increases etc

I know we will never have a huge capacity here but it is definitely overpriced.

[12th Man]

Surely we should now start seeing a vast improvement on our average attendance being an established SPL club and the population of Inversneck ever increasing

Still feel that on general our attendences are on the low side is this because;

1 The location of the stadium?

2 There is still a large number of ex caley and jag fans that don't attend?

3 Other reasons?

Don't know if I agree with the ex Caley and Jag fans theory,how many actually turned up for a highland league match? whats the attendance at Clach for instance.

Its good to see a lot of kids following Caley Thistle now instead of following their parents team 'old firm' 

[clacher_holiday2]

location,location, location

the team playing p1sh (and everybody within the club patting each other on the back about it)

pr (and everybody within the club patting each other on the back about it)

apathy

...and not cost.

do i win a prize?

[crownjaggie]

Like the Wanderer I agree wholeheartedly with Caley D's epithet.

I do think the club needs to take a gamble on some ticketing incentives.

1.  Season ticket holders/ Supporters club members provided with a number of half price/reduced price vouchers to spread around irregular/ non attendees etc.

2.  Match day family tickets where if 2 adults pay 2 children go free.

There are a host of other methods which could be tried.

[Guest eliza]

Maybe a reality check in regard to performance and attendances - today at the Cowdenbeath v Ross County game, the crowd numbered 320!

Having been an attending  fan of Caley and ICT for umpteen years, I sincerely hope that the crowd at an ICT game never reaches that figure.

[The Mantis]

I'd imagine quite a few of the 320 were tinks too.

I remember going to see ICT play there the Saturday before xmas. Santa Claus in the main street on his sleigh 30 mins before kick off got a bigger crowd  :015:

[Guest kingkojak]

you have to love bannermans eccentricity.  :crazy07:  :crazy07: :crazy07: