League shake up

[Libero]

I see Terry and Kenny have differing views on the potential shake up of Scottish football. A bit surprising to see our manager and chairman publicly coming out to the media divulging contrasting views. So whos stance do the CTO massive back?

 

Terry or Kenny?

 

Article reporting differing views: http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/terry-butcher-loses-battle-convince-1737322

 

 

[Yngwie]

I voted Kenny (ie Yes to the reforms). The 12-12-18 league structuring is only part of the proposal on the table and by voting "no" Scottish football would miss the once in a lifetime opportunity to make fundamental improvements, ie getting fairer income distribution, merging the SPL and SFL and better governance. There's no opportunity to cherry pick which bits you want, Terry, its yes or no to the package.

 

But if the 12-12-18 turns out not to be a success then it can easily be ditched after a couple of years, but we would still retain all the undeniably good parts of the package.

[+Fraz]

As I've said, I wasn't too keen on these changes at first but a new structure gives the chance of something fresh with us playing against (potentially) different teams than the usual with the knowledge that with a more even distribution of money relegation isn't the financial disaster that is was. It also brings in a more domocratic voting system (bringing together the SPL & SFL) that would allow for far easier future change should in a few seasons time the teams come up with something better.

 

If people are happy with the current set-up fair enough (but I've only met one person who said he is), however this proposal is the only one that the SPL/SFL could agree on to put forward so it's this or the status quo.

 

ETA - In case you haven't guessed I've voted for Kenny.

Edited March 1, 2013 by fraz

[ICTPaisley]

Voted for Kenny on this one.

[CaleyD]

I'm not sure it's entirely accurate to say that Terry and Kenny have contrasting views...more like contrasting priorities.

 

There's no secret in the fact that Kenny (and the club board) would prefer to see a larger league, but they also have to balance the books and provide Terry with the budget he gets for the playing side of things.  The club might be able to do that so long as we stay in the SPL (not just this season, but beyond) and if you take a look at the following graph (from the presentation on league reconstruction, full document attached), then where does that budget come from if we get relegated under the current setup?

 

We didn't have the figures to put on the graph at the time, but that drop shows the difference between existing (£68k) and proposed figure (£387k).  Last time we got relegated the club had close to £1 Million in the bank....it cost us every penny of that, and more, to bounce back....and the club is nowhere close to recovering the losses.

 

 

Relegation for us (and many other clubs) under the current setup would be disastrous.

 

Obviously, as the manager, Terry isn't going to contemplate or talk about the "what if" of relegation as that would be admitting the possibility of him "failing"....and nor should he.

 

Club boards/chairmen don't have the luxury of ignoring the worst case scenario and have no option but to give heavy consideration to the finances.

 

In saying all that, I also don't think it's purely about the finances for Kenny and the board either.  The new proposals, as was highlighted in the presentation, bring about a lot more....and the most important thing is a corporate structure that is more open and capable of change.  So, if a couple of seasons down the line it's proven that the proposed 12-12-18 is not working, then change doesn't need 11/1 votes in it's favour and any proposals for a larger league would, at least, have a chance of getting passed on a majority decision.

 

If anything, Terry has an opinion which contrasts that of the fans.  For (at least) 3 seasons now we have done nothing but complain about the current setup and how boring it is.  Yet here we are presented with the opportunity for change and all of a sudden the current setup is the best thing since sliced bread.  In effect, those choosing "Terry" in the above poll are saying "we were wrong and have been wrong all along"....if that's the case, then what makes you think you are all of a sudden right now?  Or maybe, for some, it's more about voting against the establishment...regardless of what plans they put forward!!!

cjt_reconstruction.pdf

[+Wanderer]

“For us to finish ninth or 10th in the SPL would be a good season.

“But ninth or 10th will not be good enough to reach the 14-game Premier League.

“If you lose players through injury or suspension you could end up being relegated even after being miles ahead of the team in 12th.

“It isn’t rewarding success. The team that finishes first in the First Division might not go up, even if they are 20 points clear after 22 games."

 

4 teams with SPL experience and players will mostly prevail over 4 teams with 1st Div experience and players over the course of 14 games (MOSTLY I'm saying!). In which case this is making it even harder to get out of Div1.

 

This and other questions I have about the way clubs will manipulate games in the run up to the split if they are looking semi-detached...I tend to agree with Terry.

 

But, change is needed and if the powers that be have the ears and cahones to fine-tune it when needed then fine. Let's try it.

[CaleyD]

“For us to finish ninth or 10th in the SPL would be a good season.

“But ninth or 10th will not be good enough to reach the 14-game Premier League.

“If you lose players through injury or suspension you could end up being relegated even after being miles ahead of the team in 12th.

“It isn’t rewarding success. The team that finishes first in the First Division might not go up, even if they are 20 points clear after 22 games."

 

4 teams with SPL experience and players will mostly prevail over 4 teams with 1st Div experience and players over the course of 14 games (MOSTLY I'm saying!). In which case this is making it even harder to get out of Div1.

 

This and other questions I have about the way clubs will manipulate games in the run up to the split if they are looking semi-detached...I tend to agree with Terry.

 

But, change is needed and if the powers that be have the ears and cahones to fine-tune it when needed then fine. Let's try it.

 

As things are....then yes, I agree.  However....under the proposed set up with the new financial distribution, then the gap between bottom of the top league and top of the middle league will start to close and the play-off league actually becomes anyone's for the taking.

[Govan Jaggie]

Thanks for getting my ugly mug on the front page! :)

[bishbashbosh]

i am with terry on this.

we could finish 9th and just miss the top 8 on goal difference, where as the bottom club could know after several games that they are going to finish bottom. they start resting players, playing young boys while the teams in 9,10,11 places are going hell for leather trying to make the top 8, picking up injuries,suspensions.

the bottom club would also influence who would finish in the bottom 4 eg playing 2nd teams against top 8 clubs and first teams against the other bottom 4 clubs to try and keep them in the bottom 4.

 

i take it we would only be paying for a season ticket for the first 22 games. if we finished bottom 4 i would not be buying a season ticket for the remainder of the games, we will be into the new golf season by then. at present i give my season ticket to mates after march to play my golf

never been interested in play off's it is just another way to fleece the supporter.

winning a league or being relegated should be over the whole season.

 

why do we never learn it was tried in switzerland and was deemed a failure.

when buying any product if someone tells me not to touch something, or buying a holiday i go to trip advisor and if the people that have been there say not to go ------------ i listen and look for something else

 

kenny wants it for financial resons but if it does not work how many people will be lost to the game. as we have seen to date loose fans and they do not return once they have found something else to do on match days

[CaleyD]

i am with terry on this.

we could finish 9th and just miss the top 8 on goal difference, where as the bottom club could know after several games that they are going to finish bottom. they start resting players, playing young boys while the teams in 9,10,11 places are going hell for leather trying to make the top 8, picking up injuries,suspensions.

the bottom club would also influence who would finish in the bottom 4 eg playing 2nd teams against top 8 clubs and first teams against the other bottom 4 clubs to try and keep them in the bottom 4.

Not going to happen.  The bottom 4 have their league money "frozen" at the point where the split happens.  i.e. If you are 9th come the split then you get the cash for that position come the end of the season.  With the financial difference between 9th and 12th being about £250k...are they really going to stop trying?

 

i take it we would only be paying for a season ticket for the first 22 games. if we finished bottom 4 i would not be buying a season ticket for the remainder of the games, we will be into the new golf season by then. at present i give my season ticket to mates after march to play my golf

never been interested in play off's it is just another way to fleece the supporter.

winning a league or being relegated should be over the whole season.

Clubs are free to sell season tickets in any way they wish, but nobody seems to be giving any indication that they would do any different than they do now.

 

You fall in to the minority in regards to not wanting play-offs

 

why do we never learn it was tried in switzerland and was deemed a failure.

when buying any product if someone tells me not to touch something, or buying a holiday i go to trip advisor and if the people that have been there say not to go ------------ i listen and look for something else

 

kenny wants it for financial resons but if it does not work how many people will be lost to the game. as we have seen to date loose fans and they do not return once they have found something else to do on match days

The game is losing fans now, and part of the reason people are giving is that the current system is boring and stale.  The ONLY change that has any chance of being voted through right now is what is on the table.  It may not deliver a product that is immediately going to reverse the trend, but it does deliver a system which is able to change with far more efficiency in future.

 

If nothing is done now then we'll find ourselves sitting in 12 months time with further reduced crowds, having the same discussions and still getting nowhere.

 

Take a look at the league table...take a look where we currently sit...take a look at which positions are giving up the most with the proposed changes to financial distribution.  Does that really look like we are a club making decisions purely on the basis of money?

[+bughtmaster]

Wow it is difficult, I am one who has wanted change but I am not in favour of the existing proposals.

The current scenario is to my mind providing the most exciting enjoyable and nail biting league contest in years with the only club that must be feeling a bit disinterested being Celtic. If only we could have competition like this each season in the future, the fans would soon come flocking in to all grounds. However no guarantees this might just be a flash in the pan season with a return to drab normality ahead.

However my vote goes to Terry.

[starchief]

Is being in the second division halfway through the season really that exciting?  Without Rangers for a few years, sharing the money from Celtic and having the current league set up where most teams can finish second (and possibly first with a bit more cash) just can't be beaten.  A play off to finish and we're there.

[CaleyD]

Is being in the second division halfway through the season really that exciting?  Without Rangers for a few years, sharing the money from Celtic and having the current league set up where most teams can finish second (and possibly first with a bit more cash) just can't be beaten.  A play off to finish and we're there.

 

That's part of the issue...

 

Current SPL clubs will not accept the addition of a play-off under the current set-up as you then risk 2 clubs falling off that financial cliff.

 

They also won't accept the new financial distribution model as that would involve just handing cash over to another organisation and who's to say it would be used as intended then?