Letter of complaint

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Dear Mr Savage,

I was intending not to formally complain but the more that I have dwelt on what happened the more angry I have become. As well as my disgust that I may have been specifically targetted for removal I have also looked into some of the legalities, which I will conclude with but I would wish you to consider this correspondence as a formal complaint.

I am a loyal and faithful fan of Inverness football. I was born in the town in 1957 and followed Caledonian from a very early age. I now live in Lancashire but I still travel regularly to home and away games, often with my family, at considerable personal expense. I have to admit to being a rather eccentric and extroverted individual when I don my website "alter-ego" of the Immortal Howden Ender and I have no doubt that my outspokenness and sarcastic sense of humour undoubtedly irritates people at times. But most people understand that my jibes are purely in jest, that my actions are of a jocular nature and that I would not act in a manner that would lead to bring myself or the club into disrepute.

I was the individual who originally mooted the idea for the Standing section at the Dunfermline game, via Caleythistleonline.com. I travelled north for the weekend by train and enjoyed the Supporters Club Indoor Bowling event on the Friday evening. I took up my place in Section A, attired in my kilt and "lucky" accessories, which admittedly probaly made me stand out more than most. I positioned myself on the 6-7 row from the rear of the Section. All the younger fans behind me were standing for the majority of the time and I was therefore not blocking the view of any fans positioned behind me. At no stage did any other fan make any comment to me or request that I should become seated. I sat and stood up for periods during the game. I stood up when ICT were pressing forward or to join in chants, at other times I stayed seated. No comments were made to me in the first half. Shortly into the second half a lady steward asked me to sit down which I accordingly did. A chant broke out and all around me stood up in unison. For some reason the lady steward ignored the others and warned me that if I did not sit down I may be ejected. I asked for the reasoning and she responded - "That is just the rules". At this stage I pointed out that most of the fans around me were doing likewise and pointed out that the fans in the Dunfermline end had been standing up for most of the match. A chant of "stand up for the Caley Jags" then broke out. The entire section stood up in unison and I joined in. I was again picked out and told that I had to leave the ground and was ejected by two stewards. On the way out one of the stewards apologised to me, stating that they had been given directions to specifically ahve me removed.

If I had been abusive, intoxicated, and/or disorderly my ejection could not be argued but it would appear that my ejection may have been due to some sort of personal grudge and for standing up to sing in a Singing section. At the present time I am disillusioned and disgusted at the actions of the club. I understand that the Supporters Trust and Club are looking into the incidents that occurred on that day, and I understand that the treatment meted outed to other fans ejected was more extreme than I experienced. I intend to copy this letter on to the web site. I would wish to be afforded a formal response which I will receive in confidence. I would wish to conclude with excerpts from the fans at West Ham United which I am also sending to the Supporters Club and Trust as my recommended view on a way forward.

Yours sincerely,

MR JOHN MACKENZIE

.1 A significant proportion of supporters wish to watch football whilst standing, and as terraced areas are no longer permitted, many choose to stand in seated areas. The desire of these supporters to stand is very high, and it will be very difficult to stop the persistent standing.

1.2 The efforts made by the authorities to prevent standing are out of all proportion to the degree of the safety risk, and there is concern that the sanctions imposed will have a financial impact on clubs, and could lead to crowd disorder.

1.3 The Government has used its powers under the Football Spectators Act to decree that stadia in the SPL should be all seated, and although there is a very good case for the re-introduction of well managed safe standing areas, it appears unlikely that this will be rescinded in the foreseeable future.

1.4 The law relating to standing in seated areas in not clear, but does not appear to forbid standing. Ground regulations do not permit standing during play, but are based on guidelines not legislation.

1.5 The safety risks associated with persistent standing vary according to ground design, and in particular the slope and tier of a stand, but are generally very small. Passive standing during normal play is less hazardous than standing at times of excitement, yet there is no attempt to prevent this. Spectators leaving the ground at the end of a game has also been identified as a greater risk than standing during play.

1.6 The FLA state the possibility of a cascade effect as a major reason why it does not consider standing in seated areas to be safe, however given that many thousands of goals have been celebrated by supporters jumping from their seats with no such effect occurring, statistically the chances of this happening due to passive standing during play, must be negligible.

1.7 The FLA’s potential concerns with regard to crowd management are largely negated if supporters stand passively in front of their seats, and concerns relating to customer care can be overcome by separating those who wish to stand from those who prefer to sit.

1.8 Unless some compromise can be reached there will be increasing conflict, which will have a negative impact on supporters and clubs, and occupy resources which the safety authorities could use to deal with more serious issues.

1.9 A common sense approach is required, with a realistic approach to safety management.

1.10 It is suggested that for a trial period, one or more areas of each ground should be selected as giving the least risk, and supporters in these areas permitted to stand in front of their seats.

1.11 Supporters should be involved in the assessment of risk and safety management of these areas, and a Code of Conduct introduced to cover issues such as keeping gangways clear.

1.12 A new initiative is required to reach a solution, and this would have greater chance of success if it concentrated on achieving compromise on standing in seated areas, rather than aiming for the return of terracing. Football clubs should be encouraged to become involved in seeking a compromise solution.

[Scotty]

for one so fond of the wind up and jocularity that is very eloquent and non-aggresive :clapping03: :clapping03:

[maimie]

well done oh immortal one!

if you weren't before you certainly will be now! :clapping03: :clapping03:

[weeStie]

Well said, Johndo.  Standing areas for those fans who want them are a must.  The idea of all-seated stadia suits only the Big Boys of the SPL and even their fans would probably prefer to stand.  Having said that though, I don't think I'd like to have stood up in the old Main stand at Chelsea in the early 70's where just getting to your seat induced vertigo!

Best of luck with your complaint but don't hold your breath pending a reply.

[caley100]

        "I have to admit to being a rather eccentric and extroverted individual when I don my website "alter-ego" of the Immortal Howden Ender and I have no doubt that my outspokenness and sarcastic sense of humour undoubtedly irritates people at times. "

:crazy07: :crazy07:    Dont believe it... mind you if they saw ya in the bowling shoes heading home...

[BIGTAMS]

Well said Johndo, all the best.  :021: :004:

[Guest PartTimer]

Johndo,

"I was the individual who originally mooted the idea for the [glow=red,2,300]Standing[/glow] section at the Dunfermline game"

Do you mean the "singing" section or the "standing" section. Big Difference!

PT

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

OOPS - A Freudian feckin slip  :rotflmao:

[Kingsmills]

Well said Johndo, you'd obviously been off the stamps for a while before composing that missive.

[The Mantis]

Well put Johndo.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Just to let everybody know that I have just received TWO e-mails - one from Alan Savage and one from Mike Smith - The former being very positive and the latter assuring me of a forthcoming "comprehensive" response.

:001:

[finmack]

Well put together. Agree with everything you said.

[Scotty]

Glad to hear that you have had the courtesy of replies from both the chairman and the club - hope the "comprehensive response" actually gives you some explanations / assurances when it does arrive.

[Heilandee]

Stop yer bloody moaning,your only a customer!

[caley100]

Aye.. we only pay the club our hard earned money :004:

Anyway, well son IHE, wonder what the response will be eh?

[Scotty]

well son IHE

so your finally admitting it then C100 ? either you are his father, or old enough to be him  :015: :015: :015:

[CELTIC1CALEY3]

If we could clone 5,000 IHE's just for one match we would have colour, passion, vibrancy and total support - that is normally seen only at top Cup games.  The players need that leadership and inspiration and I am pleased you have conducted your formal complaint so formally. I am convinced the Club will respond to the satisfaction of the majority of supporters. The good ship has been through many storms and berthed at many ports. Occasionally alien cultures can create problems but I see good times on the horizon.

[caley100]

If we could clone 5,000 IHE's just for one match we would have colour, passion, vibrancy and total support - that is normally seen only at top Cup games.  The players need that leadership and inspiration and I am pleased you have conducted your formal complaint so formally. I am convinced the Club will respond to the satisfaction of the majority of supporters. The good ship has been through many storms and berthed at many ports. Occasionally alien cultures can create problems but I see good times on the horizon.

Aye, and every pub in town would be dry....

No chance Scotty, Johndo is Willie Bells love child.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

This may be long winded but my feckin computer skills are naff and this may be my way of passing it on. I suggested that this is considered by the Supporters Club and the Trust fer the meeting on Monday Evening. If anybody wants to add, ammend or challenge then please do - ASAP.

The “Stand Up Sit Down” campaign was launched in July 2004 in response to growing conflict between supporters, clubs and safety authorities with regard to persistent standing in seated areas.

The membership now covers supporters of over 130 British clubs, and includes both those who wish to stand and those who prefer to sit.

The campaign's name was specifically chosen to indicate that it wants to get back to supporters having a choice as to whether they stand or sit. It is not just a campaign for fans who want to stand, but is for all football supporters.

With a little common sense and compromise on all sides this issue could easily be resolved.

The campaign was set up with the objective to get at least one area of each ground where standing will be allowed, provided that supporters keep to a Code of Conduct.

The aim is to work with the safety authorities and clubs to agree the most suitable areas for standing where this causes is no real risk.

The campaign accepts that standing should not be permitted in areas where this could cause a significant safety hazard.

By restricting standing to the most suitable areas it would improve safety over the current situation. By separating those who wish to stand from those who prefer to sit, it would overcome the customer care issues.

To varying degrees, there are difficulties at most clubs because some supporters have a very strong desire to stand, and may block the views of those who prefer to sit.

Until recent years spectators had a choice as to whether they sit or stand. Football is a passionate game, and many supporters prefer to stand, as they feel more involved, and it is more conducive to creating the unique atmosphere of British football.

The authorities seek to prevent persistent standing, but increasing sanctions such as ejections, bans, capacity and ticket reductions, will affect all supporters, could lead to disorder, and will have an increasing financial impact on clubs. However despite these efforts, thousands of fans continue to stand every week.

The time spent on this issue by the safety authorities is out of all proportion to the risks involved, and a resolution would allow them to concentrate resources on other more pressing issues.

A compromise solution based on common sense appears to be the best way forward for all concerned.

The following proposal was originally mooted by the fans of West Ham United in conjunction with the “Sit Down - Stand Up“ campaign.

It certainly appears to provide a starting point where further work can be carried out by the Board of Inverness Caledonian Thistle, the Supporters Trust and the Supporters Club - to reach a mutually agreed outcome.

1 A significant proportion of supporters wish to watch football whilst standing, and as terraced areas are no longer permitted, many choose to stand in seated areas. The desire of these supporters to stand is very high, and it will be very difficult to stop the persistent standing.

1.2 The efforts made by the authorities to prevent standing are out of all proportion to the degree of the safety risk, and there is concern that the sanctions imposed will have a financial impact on clubs, and could lead to crowd disorder.

1.3 The Government has used its powers under the Football Spectators Act to decree that stadia in the SPL should be all seated, and although there is a very good case for the re-introduction of well managed safe standing areas, it appears unlikely that this will be rescinded in the foreseeable future.

1.4 The law relating to standing in seated areas in not clear, but does not appear to forbid standing. Ground regulations do not permit standing during play, but are based on guidelines not legislation.

1.5 The safety risks associated with persistent standing vary according to ground design, and in particular the slope and tier of a stand, but are generally very small. Passive standing during normal play is less hazardous than standing at times of excitement, yet there is no attempt to prevent this. Spectators leaving the ground at the end of a game has also been identified as a greater risk than standing during play.

1.6 The Football Authorities state the possibility of a cascade effect as a major reason why it does not consider standing in seated areas to be safe, however given that many thousands of goals have been celebrated by supporters jumping from their seats with no such effect occurring, statistically the chances of this happening due to passive standing during play, must be negligible.

1.7 The Football Authorities’ potential concerns with regard to crowd management are largely negated if supporters stand passively in front of their seats, and concerns relating to customer care can be overcome by separating those who wish to stand from those who prefer to sit.

1.8 Unless some compromise can be reached there will be increasing conflict, which will have a negative impact on supporters and clubs, and occupy resources which the safety authorities could use to deal with more serious issues.

1.9 A common sense approach is required, with a realistic approach to safety management.

1.10 It is suggested that for a trial period, one or more areas of each ground should be selected as giving the least risk, and supporters in these areas permitted to stand in front of their seats.

1.11 Supporters should be involved in the assessment of risk and safety management of these areas, and a Code of Conduct introduced to cover issues such as keeping gangways clear.

1.12 A new initiative is required to reach a solution, and this would have greater chance of success if it concentrated on achieving compromise on standing in seated areas, rather than aiming for the return of terracing. Football clubs should be encouraged to become involved in seeking a compromise solution.

It is fully appreciated that the club will have to liaise with all the other club representatives within the SPL but we feel that the following points may be of potentially significant benefit to ICT and should be afforded considerable consideration:

1. With the degree of lobbying actively taking place it could be conjectured that there is an air of inevitability that the allocation of Standing areas, in both the English and Scottish leagues, will be introduced or piloted in the near future.

2. This provides ICT with an unique opportunity to become a “pioneer” in regard to Standing / Singing Sections and taking a lead can only result in positive media coverage, take ICT into the National headlines and potentially endear us further to the large majority of football fans in Britain.

3. It may be suggested that ICT could offer to be a “pilot scheme” for the SPL in such a venture. Again this would attract positive media attention, potential financial gain and it would also place an onus on the supporters of ICT to ensure that the behaviour in the Standing Section was beyond reproach, as they would be representing the footballing fan base of British football.

4. It could equally be postulated that ICT have certain advantages over other clubs:

a. Our home attendances are the lowest in the SPL. This means that, apart from the visits of the Old Firm, we have the leeway to safely allocate a specific section of the ground to encompass the Standing Section.

b. There is no known “hooligan” or “casual” fan element evident within ICT.

c. The Standing Section would not be allocated to an area close to the Away support. At many SPL grounds the vociferous and potentially inflammatory home  supports often congregate in the close vicinity to the away support.

d. The large majority of the ICT “singing support” either know each other or recognise each other. We are talking of a relatively small number (200-300 “hardcore”) who would be in regular attendance. This would make the “pilot” easier to “police” and it would bring a sense of ownership and responsibility to the supporters and may evolve into a “self-policing” philosophy.

5. The potential negatives are that there are incidents involving disorderly behaviour within the Standing Section. It has to be stressed that the “incidents” at the Dunfermline “experiment” appeared to be strongly influenced by the inflammatory behaviours of the stewards. Rules would have to be enforced but, again, the small but enthusiastic support would be placed under considerable pressure to conform.

6. The positives therefore appear to considerably outweigh the negatives. The potential “gains” are intensive nationwide media coverage, the attention and backing of a large number of football fans across the UK, bringing the club closer to the fans and the community again, potentially increased attendance figures and a potential platform to seek financial backing from the SPL or private sponsorship.

IF YOU CAN SEE A CHANGE COMING - SRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT - PIONEERING IS A RISK BUT COULD BRING MAJOR DIVIDENDS IF SUCCESSFUL.

:crazy07: :crazy07: :crazy07:

[wyness_is_god]

:021:

[EWS]

Right, who are you and what have you done with IHE?

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

The bestards from the Mental Health services have been making me take the Olanzapine twice a day  fer two feckin weeks now.  :rotflmao:

[Scotty]

IHE - another fine article.

Hopefully the club/directors will see how the 6 specific points that have been tailored to ICT in your posting could turn the unmitigated PR DISASTER of ejecting their own fans from an area that the club were promoting, into a nationwide PR OPPORTUNITY.

The club got a lot of good press when lobbying for a reduction in the SPL stadium capacity from 10k to 6k ... perhaps this could be another initiative that shows we may be a small club but we have big contribution to make.

[caley89]

b. There is no known “hooligan” or “casual” fan element evident within ICT.

[CaleyD]

I am of the opinion that it will take just one club to push this issue all the way to the courts for the SPL to be forced to back down on their self imposed "no-standing" rule and bring about a lot of changes.

It is, of course, a risky business to push any matter that far.  The SPL threaten us with the fact that local authorities would step in with regards to Safety Certificates, but the Local Authorities would be powerless to do anything to remove our safety certificate as we do not fall into the "10,000 capacity" guidelines which are set out in Scottish Legislation for all-seater stadia.

If ICT were to re-open terracing opposite the main stand with just 2,000 added capacity and stick the 2 fingers up at the SPL then yes, we could be ejected under the SPL rules, but I believe we would have a great deal of support from within the SPL and also from the courts in preventing them enforcing the rule.  We would likely receive a shot across our bows (possibly a fine) in the first instance but it may just be enough to force the issue without risking expulsion.

I call on the club to implement such a move and for the fans to support them by conductiong themselves in an appropriate manner should they choose to go down such a road.