Question...

[jaggedthistle]

As you all probably know, the new security industry licensing laws came in to play on November 1st.  As a result of this, all of Rock Steady's staff have to be SIA licensed for this Saturday's game.  I've been hearing that none of Rock Steady's stewards actually have said licence.  What if they have to eject someone from the ground on Saturday?  I'm told if this happens the club will face a hefty fine.  Can we afford to lose money in such a way?  :024:

[Alex MacLeod]

The designated sectorsthat require licensing are:

Door Supervisor (in-house & contact), Security Guard (contractors), Cash & Valuables in Transit (contractors), Public Space Surveillance CCTV (contractors), Close Protection (contractors), Key Holders (contractors), Vehicle immobilising (England and Wales only)

so what does crowd control come under?

[jaggedthistle]

From the SIA website:

"The licensing authority may choose to license a complete event, stadium or venue. This would require all those undertaking licensable manned guarding activities to be licensed as door supervisors, unless exempted in connection with a certified sports ground or stand."

The Scottish Executive ruled that there would be no exemptions in Scotland.

[L_G]

I can't cut and past the bit I want, but the sia website has copies of all the documents.  It is my understanding that there is an exemption for English football but as you say this doesn't exist in Scotland.

As far as I can establish there are things they can do without licence like, show you to your seat and keep the isles clear, but if there are issues with ejections etc then they would have to be licenced.  They will have to display their licence for all to see.  It is also necessary for the person who employs the said stewards to have a licence.

I do believe that Rock Steady are not going down the route of licencing and they are a big company, so you would have to assume they know what they are doing, so there may be more loopholes.

I do know for a fact though that ACE have trained and licenced all of their staff which I think is really good practice. John Sutherland is also licenced so when he was Match Day Safety Officer we would have been within the new regulations, but now I'm not so sure.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

What does a license to be an ersehole consist of ?

[jaggedthistle]

I'm just concerned that if the stewards aren't licenced on Saturday and they do eject someone (for a change) and that person knows his stuff, that the club will suffer for it.  From what I've heard, these fines can some times carry a jail sentence with them as well.  I don't know if this is just people gettin over excited or what, but it's not exactly going to look great if our Powers That Be are in the slammer!! :018:

[L_G]

The designated sectorsthat require licensing are:

Door Supervisor (in-house & contact), Security Guard (contractors), Cash & Valuables in Transit (contractors), Public Space Surveillance CCTV (contractors), Close Protection (contractors), Key Holders (contractors), Vehicle immobilising (England and Wales only)

so what does crowd control come under?

I think we come under event security

More information here

And here also

[L_G]

I'm just concerned that if the stewards aren't licenced on Saturday and they do eject someone (for a change) and that person knows his stuff, that the club will suffer for it.  From what I've heard, these fines can some times carry a jail sentence with them as well.  I don't know if this is just people gettin over excited or what, but it's not exactly going to look great if our Powers That Be are in the slammer!! :018:

I do share your concerns, but my only conselation is that Rock Steady are a huge company with vast experience in event security. They manage the security for a number of Football Clubs, so I would think that they have this covered.  (Or at least I hope they have)

[Johnboy]

I'm just concerned that if the stewards aren't licenced on Saturday and they do eject someone (for a change) and that person knows his stuff, that the club will suffer for it.  From what I've heard, these fines can some times carry a jail sentence with them as well.  I don't know if this is just people gettin over excited or what, but it's not exactly going to look great if our Powers That Be are in the slammer!! :018:

You mean IHE could get thrown out on Saturday and Mike Smith could end up in the slammer..?

:024:

[L_G]

From the SIA - Security at Events booklet

The following lists some examples of the types of guarding roles which

are likely to require an SIA licence, but only if they are undertaken in

relation to one or more of the manned guarding activities defined above

Screening a person?s suitability to enter the event or venue e.g.

individuals under the influence of alcohol or drugs or demonstrating

anti social behaviour.

Searching of persons and/or property to prevent items that are

unauthorised or illegal from entering the premises e.g. alcohol, drugs

or weapons.

Responding to incidents within crowds, queues or the audience to

control behaviour which is antisocial, undesirable or likely to result

in harm to others.

Ejecting individuals from a venue or event or designated area

e.g. concert pit or backstage areas.

Protecting a pitch, track or other identifiable area from spectators

or others with the intention of preventing damage to property or

persons.

Providing a security presence to prevent and detect crime within

a designated area.

Guarding property and/or equipment in situ during the setup

and breaking down of, for example, an event or exhibition.

Patrolling the perimeter of an event to prevent unauthorised entry

being gained by individuals, through the climbing or breaching of any

fences or barriers, or through being let in via an access point

[Alex MacLeod]

Just browsed through the SIA consultation document

I think maybe the paragraphs below may exempt the stewards from licensing.

32.

There are already a number of systems of regulating safety at sports grounds/events. These include Health and Safety legislation and regulations; legislation under the Safety of Sports Grounds Act 1975 and the Fire Safety and Safety of Places of Sport Act 1987; and the Licensing Act 2003.

33.

The PSIA was not intended to regulate the roles associated with undertaking safety functions already covered by the legislation in the preceding paragraph, much of which is reflected in the DCMS/Scottish Office Guide to Safety at Sports Grounds (?the Green Guide?) and guidance such as ?The Event Safety Guide3 and Managing Crowds Safely4 published by the Health and Safety Executive (HSE). Instead, it is about ensuring that those people involved specifically in security duties are appropriately trained and vetted in proportion to the risk.

[L_G]

From the same publication

3.5 Non-licensable activities

In determining whether an individual is licensable, consideration should

be given to the full range of activities that an individual performs.

Although other activities may make an individual licensable, it is likely

that the following types of activities in isolation will not:

? Customer care duties including directing patrons to refreshments,

toilet and first aid facilities

? Directing spectators to seating areas by checking tickets

? Providing safety advice and assistance to patrons as required

Monitoring the crowd in accordance with health and safety for

signs of distress caused by overcrowding and taking action in

accordance with standing instructions

? Ensuring gangways and exit/evacuation routes are kept clear for

health & safety purposes

? Providing assistance in the carrying out of evacuation procedures in

the event of danger to patrons, including liaising with

representatives of the emergency services

? To be responsible for the health and safety and comfort of

spectators within a designated area

? Monitoring and maintaining the pedestrian flow at key locations e.g.

entry and exit points.

? Providing guidance and direction to visitors arriving by car or on

foot, including the management of roadway crossings to ensure the

safe passage of visitors over the roads

? Report to a supervisor or safety officer any damage or defect

which is likely to pose a threat to spectator ?health and safety? e.g. a

damaged seat or barrier

This list is by no means exhaustive and it should be remembered that it

is not the job title that is important; it is the work that an operative

actually does (the activity undertaken) that determines whether they

need a licence.

[L_G]

Just browsed through the SIA consultation document

I think maybe the paragraphs below may exempt the stewards from licensing.

32.

There are already a number of systems of regulating safety at sports grounds/events. These include Health and Safety legislation and regulations; legislation under the Safety of Sports Grounds Act 1975 and the Fire Safety and Safety of Places of Sport Act 1987; and the Licensing Act 2003.

33.

The PSIA was not intended to regulate the roles associated with undertaking safety functions already covered by the legislation in the preceding paragraph, much of which is reflected in the DCMS/Scottish Office Guide to Safety at Sports Grounds (?the Green Guide?) and guidance such as ?The Event Safety Guide3 and Managing Crowds Safely4 published by the Health and Safety Executive (HSE). Instead, it is about ensuring that those people involved specifically in security duties are appropriately trained and vetted in proportion to the risk.

There is an exemption in place in England, but as far as I am aware there is no exemption in place in Scotland.  As I say we are buying a very experienced company to provide our security and I would be very surprised, as well as disappointed if they don't comply as necessary.

I'm just adding bits to show the gray areas, but I would expect that Rock Steady will either have trained staff or clarification on the exemption.  They work at much bigger stadiums than ours.

[jaggedthistle]

You mean IHE could get thrown out on Saturday and Mike Smith could end up in the slammer..?

:024:

[beachcomber]

:012: i really couldn't care less (about the regulations that is, not IHE)

[CaleyD]

I would hope it wouldn't be the case, but lets not have anyone looking to test/antagonise the situation.

The Stewards will be there to do the same job they always do whether they have a license or not and it is the club and the stewarding company who are leaving themselves open to problems if they have not ensured compliance with the new laws.

This situation covers far more than just TCS and if clubs aren't complying with the law then something will happen during the natural course of events to bring it to light and nobody should be risking their own neck intentionally because of the ongoing stewarding issues.

In short, they are quite capable of screwing things up themselves without the need for any help from the fans, and at the end of the day, if you cause an issue then the police are still on hand to ensure your dealt with accordingly.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

I'm just concerned that if the stewards aren't licenced on Saturday and they do eject someone (for a change) and that person knows his stuff, that the club will suffer for it.  From what I've heard, these fines can some times carry a jail sentence with them as well.  I don't know if this is just people gettin over excited or what, but it's not exactly going to look great if our Powers That Be are in the slammer!! :018:

You mean IHE could get thrown out on Saturday and Mike Smith could end up in the slammer..?

:024:

Whats the train times Gringo ?

[L_G]

:rotflmao:

No need IHE, I have been in touch with the Chief Exec today and he assures me that the club are very aware of the requirements and that they are working closely with Rock Steady to ensure compliance for Saturday.

[Alex MacLeod]

Just browsed through the SIA consultation document

I think maybe the paragraphs below may exempt the stewards from licensing.

32.

There are already a number of systems of regulating safety at sports grounds/events. These include Health and Safety legislation and regulations; legislation under the Safety of Sports Grounds Act 1975 and the Fire Safety and Safety of Places of Sport Act 1987; and the Licensing Act 2003.

33.

The PSIA was not intended to regulate the roles associated with undertaking safety functions already covered by the legislation in the preceding paragraph, much of which is reflected in the DCMS/Scottish Office Guide to Safety at Sports Grounds (?the Green Guide?) and guidance such as ?The Event Safety Guide3 and Managing Crowds Safely4 published by the Health and Safety Executive (HSE). Instead, it is about ensuring that those people involved specifically in security duties are appropriately trained and vetted in proportion to the risk.

There is an exemption in place in England, but as far as I am aware there is no exemption in place in Scotland.  As I say we are buying a very experienced company to provide our security and I would be very surprised, as well as disappointed if they don't comply as necessary.

LG. Para 33 refers to Scottish Office Guide.

I'm sure they all know the law and will all comply.

So if anyone wants to challenge then you may find yoursef with egg on your face.

I'm just adding bits to show the gray areas, but I would expect that Rock Steady will either have trained staff or clarification on the exemption.  They work at much bigger stadiums than ours.

[CaleyD]

I can see where your coming from Alex, and although the legislation wasn't "intended" to cover the roles defined in these other areas it does by default and until such time as an exemption is granted then it has to be followed.

I've done a lot of reading up on the subject and you really have to do a lot of cross referencing and matching up to get all the legislation to fit together...it is a complete minefield.

Much is made of this "exemption" that exists south of the border but it is not a total exemption.  Exemption only applies to those stewards who are not performing "licensable activities" and the level of licensing they require depends on whether they are employed directly by the club or are contracted/agency staff.

For Club Employees

Club Safety Stewards & Stewards performing licensable activities in non-licensed areas require a Level 2 Stewarding Qualification

Stewards performing licensable activities in licensed areas and Supervisors require Level 2 Stewarding Qualification and must have undergone a Disclosure Scotland check

For Contract/Agency Stewards

Safety Stewarding - as above

Licensable activities in non-licensed areas - Level 2 SQ and an SIA Manned Guarding License

Licensable activities in licensed areas - Level 2 SQ and an SIA Door Supervisor License

Licensable activities at football matches consist of

- Those who search spectators on entry to the ground

and/or

- Those who are specifically tasked with intervening against and ejecting spectators who are in breach of ground regulations.

Ironically, should the exemption be granted by the Scottish Office then the Safety Officer in charge of overseeing all activities involving the stewards does not need to be licensed, they simply have to have undergone a Disclosure Check (although I believe the National Football Licensing manual dictates that such persons must hold a position at senior level within the company)

So as you can see, even if exemption were to come in to force in Scotland, a good portion of the stewarding staff would still need to get a qualification/license of some form.

[Caley]

You mean IHE could get thrown out on Saturday and Mike Smith could end up in the slammer..?

:024:

The words "red", "rag" & "bull" spring to mind... :shooting05: :steward:

[tm4tj]

:029: why are we having this in depth discussion, surely the club have it in hand?

"What does a license to be an ersehole consist of ?" said IHE

Do you have one of these licenses?

[Govan Jaggie]

They have it in hand the ICT way.  Three days to go and still not finalised.  Professional as ever.

[Flower]

So does the steward who checks your bags at the turnstiles require a licence, and have to display their licence prominently?

[CaleyD]

My understanding is that regardless of whether exemption is granted as it has been in England that the answer to that question is yes.  Although in my experience it has mostly been police who have undertaken this responsibility anyway.