ICT Financial Accounts-YE 31/05/09

[Charles Bannerman]

assuming none of our esteemed director decide to put in some money into the club,

Why should they? Why should you expect your Saturday afternoon entertainment to be subsidised by other people?

[tokelyisvictorious]

so it is too much to ask our directors, most of whom i am sure will be shareholders, to put a little money into the club?

any football club requires investment, we required someone to step in and prevent disaster a few years back and Sutherland did just that, and while we are making losses and going further into the red, while not being able to guarantee any form of supplementary income during the season, surely it would not be too much to ask for our directors to put a little money in to keep the club going? i put my money in, do my bit as do the others who follow the team, and if i had money at my disposal and more of an expendable income then i wouldn't hesitate to do a bit more.

perhaps they already have sunk some money in, none of my business, just my view on the role of a director.

[CaleyD]

to put everything in perspective we were nearly ?2 mil in the red in 98/99 and then managed to turn everything around to become a profitable club (from being in the 2nd division I believe). I guarentee you our accounts are better than the majority of clubs in Scotland and I am thankful that we have a very prudent board

We are currently still in the black and judging by our season tickets sales, what seems to be a very popular new away top and our parachute payment we can hopefully still be there by the end of this season.

We were actually nearer ?3 Million in the red and it cost us our Stadium to make that debt "Magically" disappear. We no longer have any tangible assets on which to secure any borrowing....or indeed to sell a second time to get us out of trouble. It would take far less money to put us in serious bother now thatn it might have back then.

I don't buy the "prudent" line all that much either to be honest. Yeah, we saw a couple of good years where we made a profit, but that's been all but wiped out in the past couple of years. We might have accounts that look a lot better than the majority of clubs, but given the financial state of the game in Scotland, it's not all that much of a boast.

The reality is, with no assets to borrow against to see us through the lean times, we're actually a lot worse off in some regards to many other clubs......all depends which way you want to spin it.

so it is too much to ask our directors, most of whom i am sure will be shareholders, to put a little money into the club?

any football club requires investment, we required someone to step in and prevent disaster a few years back and Sutherland did just that, and while we are making losses and going further into the red, while not being able to guarantee any form of supplementary income during the season, surely it would not be too much to ask for our directors to put a little money in to keep the club going? i put my money in, do my bit as do the others who follow the team, and if i had money at my disposal and more of an expendable income then i wouldn't hesitate to do a bit more.

perhaps they already have sunk some money in, none of my business, just my view on the role of a director.

We have two problems here.

First, the mindset that Directors are there to put money into a business that can't sustain itself financially. It's exactly this type of thinking that has prevented fans of dozens of clubs asking the questions that needed to be asked to stop them getting into the kind of problems that's lead to an average of 4 clubs a year going into administration (or worse) in the UK in the last 15 years....a number that is increasing dramatically and could easily be in double figures for the season 2009/10.

Secondly, their seems to be this opinion that a certain person has put more into this club than they actually have. That coupled with the fact that they've had far more out the other side than they;ve ever put in and they aren't necessarily the financial white knight many think they are.

I don't actually want to see these people putting any more money into this club, because the cost of that will be more than is healthy. The majority of fans and shareholders are already struggling to fend off the might of a single shareholder and giving that person any more power, either directly or indirectly, will not do this club any favours.

[kiltarlity]

"?2 mil in the red in 98/99 and then managed to turn everything around to become a profitable club"

What you say is true, however we didn't turn it around as in "pay it back the hard way". Having said that we also didn't do a Livi and go insolvent and pay back 5p in the ?..

But Sutherland pulled some kind of buisness accounting "smoke and lights trick" and the debt vanished. I don't think anyone really knows or understands where this debt went just that it was lost from ICT's books. I think it is still there but owed and owned by another company, rather than ICT the club.

There are a few on here that worry one day it will come back in some way and bite us on the bum.. one way or another.

Edited August 25, 2009 by kiltarlity

[CaleyD]

I know exactly where the debt went and how it was made to "vanish". Been telling people for years, but most are happier to stick their head in the sand and leave others to worry about it.....which is exactly what certain people want.

[Harry Chibber]

We were actually nearer ?3 Million in the red and it cost us our Stadium to make that debt "Magically" disappear. We no longer have any tangible assets on which to secure any borrowing....or indeed to sell a second time to get us out of trouble. It would take far less money to put us in serious bother now thatn it might have back then.

If Alex is correct we have ?900k worth of assets but yes a lot less than ?2/3 mil

I don't buy the "prudent" line all that much either to be honest. Yeah, we saw a couple of good years where we made a profit, but that's been all but wiped out in the past couple of years. We might have accounts that look a lot better than the majority of clubs, but given the financial state of the game in Scotland, it's not all that much of a boast.

Wasn't really boasting just trying to use the rest of the Scottish football clubs to draw a comparison, that's the market we're competing in. I'm not saying that we have the most efficient buisness in Scotland, there are lots of aspects that could/should have been looked at while we were in the SPL but I think our board have shown themselves to be prudent when other clubs around us have spent when they couldn't afford to... likes of Livi, Gretna, Falkirk etc. etc.

The reality is, with no assets to borrow against to see us through the lean times, we're actually a lot worse off in some regards to many other clubs......all depends which way you want to spin it.

I could probably count those clubs in one hand (and no not all Invernesians have 6 fingers )

[tokelyisvictorious]

it would be good to have some money made available for transfers, in no way do i expect this to happen, and it is most football fans biggest gripe.

however i in no way want the club to be financially reliant on its shareholders/directors, but perhaps a little money towards improving the youth system, merchandise, facilties, training equipment etc? this wouldn't go towards the running costs, and wouldn't make the club reliant on anyone. just a dream anyways.....

caleyd, i haven't heard this story about how the debt disappeared, could you shed some light on the issue?

[Alex MacLeod]

it would be good to have some money made available for transfers, in no way do i expect this to happen, and it is most football fans biggest gripe.

however i in no way want the club to be financially reliant on its shareholders/directors, but perhaps a little money towards improving the youth system, merchandise, facilties, training equipment etc? this wouldn't go towards the running costs, and wouldn't make the club reliant on anyone. just a dream anyways.....

caleyd, i haven't heard this story about how the debt disappeared, could you shed some light on the issue?

ICT Youth system is, I believe, self financing and is financed by grants from Scottish FA, Scottish league and sponsorship from Lifescan.

My understanding of the disappearance of previous debt is that it was taken over by Caledonian Thistle Properties Ltd, a company that Inverness Thistle and Caledonian Ltd has a 50% stake in. Though the debt is not on the books of the club it is still there.

[tokelyisvictorious]

so the debt has been passed over to another company.

who owns the other 50% then? is it sutherland?

[CaleyD]

My understanding of the disappearance of previous debt is that it was taken over by Caledonian Thistle Properties Ltd, a company that Inverness Thistle and Caledonian Ltd has a 50% stake in. Though the debt is not on the books of the club it is still there.

Not the case. Caledonian Thistle Properties Ltd was the company set up when we took ownership of Grant Street Park to help Clach out of a hole a few years back, before it was sold back to Highland Council in 2001. This company is now Dormant.

The debt is gone....at least in terms of the club having any liability for it and it will not/can not "come back to bite us".

[tokelyisvictorious]

whats the real inside scoop then?

[Charles Bannerman]

perhaps they already have sunk some money in, none of my business, just my view on the role of a director.

Normally if a company wants to raise more money it hold a Share Issue or a Rights Issue. The strange thing is that there seems to be this view prevalent among some football fans that it's up to the Directors constantly to bail out the company's finances. Why not the fans? Maybe they should raise season ticket prices by 50% and that would help, rather than continually calling on the Directors.

[tokelyisvictorious]

Not saying that they should 'bail out the compnay's finances'. Simply that there should be a bit more investment in other aspects of the club, youth, merchandise, equipment etc etc.

[Sorted]

There have been a number of individuals who have put a fair whack of their own cash into the club over the years and as a punter I thank them all for it as in terms of the Scottish game, it is questionable if any investor has ever been financially successful.

The exception to the case was Fergus McCann who took on Celtic's debt at a time when no one else wanted it, created a well oiled business machine and sold for a healthy profit, getting a fair deal of stick in the process. Never quite understood where punters came from on that one.

More often investors get stick for not putting enough in, irrespective of how much they put in and get nothing back. No matter how much passion I have for my football club I still wouldn't invest my cash if I didn't have control, couldn't see an exit route with a return or an obvious growth route. Ultimately, even if I could have the first three I probably still wouldn't invest as my motives would be questioned continually, it would be never be enough and I would become public property.

On the specifics of the accounts (not having seen the detail), we are still in reasonable shape and there may well be an accrual for any potential Marius fall out. Stronger shape than most in our league I would guess.