CTO - The Future

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

temporary bans, i.e. 1-5 days are also usually excellent detterents of scallywags

Totally agree - Most peeple come back anew / afresh / subdued / compliant after a ban. And things are looking up when birddog becomes a self acclaimed ersehole.

Ersehole - another lubbly word.

[Guest]

temporary bans, i.e. 1-5 days are also usually excellent detterents of scallywags

Totally agree - Most peeple come back anew / afresh / subdued / compliant after a ban. And things are looking up when birddog becomes a self acclaimed ersehole.

Ersehole - another lubbly word.

I've always known I'm an erse Johndo, it's just a pitty I can't speak gaelic then I could say I wasn't trying to bypass the sweary filter.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Birdog2

[+DoofersDad]

I've only joined the forum fairly recently and from what I'm reading here it seems my joining has coincided with a deterioration of the site. I hope this has more to do with the fortunes of our beloved team than my contributions to the site.

Being new and not having experienced the site in "the good old days" I have to say I am rather surprised by the disillusionment of the mods because I think the forum is really pretty good. Of course there are some erses but the common sense, insight, enthusiasm and wit of the majority more than make up for that IMO.

However, I respect what the mods are saying and support any efforts to get rid of those posts that just make you want to say "fer fecks sake". As others have said, respect is the key thing here. But let's not use the notion of respect to sterilise the banter. Lets face it, there are a handful of contributors who seem to delight in making statements critical of the club or players or fellow contributers which are so negative and without foundation that it is hard to believe they are expressing a genuine opinion. IMO these folk are fair game for a bit of light hearted ridicule. I'm sure these folk don't feel bullied by this, instead they will get a wee thrill from having provoked a response. Such exchanges can actually be quite entertaining but the problem is that some folk take the jokers seriously, are frustrated by the lack of objectivity and respond in an abusive way. What should be entertaining becomes unpleasant.

The challenge is getting balance right and it is not a task I envy the mods. How do you maintain the mutual respect whilst maintaining that cutting edge and gentle humour that makes people want to read the posts? There have been a few good ideas posted and I sense a generally firmer line against the few will be supported by the many and will make what is already a good forum even better.

[Alex MacLeod]

temporary bans, i.e. 1-5 days are also usually excellent detterents of scallywags

Curious about the username but, that aside, what your saying is what we dont want. We want people to be responsible for their posts. We want people to realise that there is a variance in viewpoints, ages, colour, creed, etc. We want people to respect each other and each others views.

[Renegade]

I more than most I have probably ruffled a few feathers and taken a stance that may be viewed as an "alternative" view and that has often been an unpopular aproach. After all what do you expect? My username is not "HappyClapper" or "123Agree", I am an alternative, I am a devil's advocate, I am a Renegade.

What I've always tried to do, is not come on fiercely with only one view on certain things, been open to other's viewpoints (I've often changed my view when seeing other's viewpoints) and not gone on witchhunts to increase my own self pleasure. Sadly in recent months to the last year or so, the latter seems to be on the up. I can't count the number of times I've had the brunt of the witch hunt for the ultimate crime of disagreeing with such and such a point. It usually starts with me posting my view, one regular anti-Renegade poster coming on and unsurprisingly disagrees, and then on come the rest of the cheerleaders with non-comments to the first disagreer like "100% agree!" or "Renegade you're an idiot!" and no doubt a few smileys just for good measure. I must be the most hated poster on the site these days, it's become hilarious.

On another note there's a couple of types of posters that have sprung up over the last couple of years. One that I have noticed kow is that there's one or two regular posters (who will remain anonymous), who do nothing but come on here but to cause trouble. You can often spot them. They seldomly have any individual views of their own other down negative ones and belittleing others one, usually only posting a line or so at the most. They're also the first to point out other's mistakes (such as the awful crime of a minor spelling mistake) and start a hate group against a poster they not like. They're also ultra-pedantic and will often act all incident when any attacks are made on them (some also like to suck up to the mods when this happens or even "admit their mistake" when a mods points out their mistake to them). Just ban these morons. They are not to any benefit to this site or other posters on here.

Another lot are these often school age posters who just seem unable to post in normal manner. I have no problem with whatever a certain posters age is as long as they can come across maturely and respectively. There seem to be some though that come on pretty regularly posting usually rather short lines of nonsensical nuggets of nothing, usually with a few smileys and exclamation marks thrown in for good measure. I'm not calling for this lot to be banned, just told to post in a normal and mature manner, cause the way some of this lot goes on unreadable posting mararthons IMO just makes the whole place look unprofessional.

That's my view, though on the whole I would say I have no problem with most of the posters on this site (even the ones who disagree :D ), but there are a few groups that need to be dealt with to make this site a more enjoyable and informative place.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Renegade

[SMEE]

I reckon you rid the ointment of the flies....and continue to do so till you have the forum you want! Do you just ban by email addy or can you ban an IP Addy?

[blobs]

anonymity + an audience = idiocy

I forget where thats lifted from but it rings true on this site.

Sadly its what to be expected on most forums, it gives people the chance to say what they want knowing there will be no ramifications.

The fans i know like myself who read the site but dont post regularly, dont tend to do so because of the polar views that are expressed without any thought (we lose = butcher out). I think these views have risen recently, perhaps as said due to the influx of younger posters.

I think its a sad situation but if its becoming a chore to run the forum then maybe change is needed.

I would suggest:

No/limited posting rights for under 18's (make sure they can still read the forum)

temporary bans (work like a dream on other sites)

The ability for individuals to instantly block other users

Good luck fellows

hotcop

[Kirishima]

If you take a peek at my avatar, you will see that I am only to familiar with the big brother, censor, style. I cannot access Faceb, Twitter, Picassa, Blogspot etc. It is not a great road to go down.

I believe that this forum should cease to be anonymous. I think that would help the forum in terms of virtual bullies, liability, personal attacks, et al.

Anyway that could realistically be done?

On the Japanese version of Facebook, called Mixi, membership is by invitation only. That may work?

[Yngwie]

Ideas requiring proof of age, identity etc are very impractical unfortunately.

Invitation only? I suppose that could be achieved by creating an invitation only forum that only the "best" posters can access. It has its merits, but there are obvious downsides of creating a two-tier site, alienating those not selected to join.

[Libero]

The ability for individuals to instantly block other users

personally i think that idea could work, seperate the chaff from the decent posts in one click, if enough people block certain users they will get the message

[Heilandee]

How about some of the guy's who don't like being moderated so closely picking up the "Football mad" site again? ICT used to have one but it was very underused,due in the main i feel to the sucess of CTO. Maybe if one or two were prepared to take the time it would give an alternative platform to here which has a "semi official" site feel to it and they can be their own judges of whats acceptable.

footy mad

Edited November 19, 2009 by Heilandee

[starchief]

I don't think an under-18 ban should be imposed at all. As long as they're not being abusive (and let's face it, that's nothing to do with age), that's fine. I can remember one certain teen lady here was told to not complain, when she quite rightly responded that she was being supportive of Brewster for months but only got attacked for it. And yet, without her making any (that I can remember) derogatory comments, she should be banned? Definitely no age barrier.

And, what do you mean by respect? I certainly get offended by the Islamophobia spoken about by certain members on here. Should that be banned? If not, should anti-Semitism, homophobia, anti-black be ok too?

I can't believe anyone hates Renegade. I disagree with about 90% of his posts but certainly enjoy reading them probably more than anyone else's.

[Libero]

How about some of the guy's who don't like being moderated so closely picking up the "Football mad" site again? ICT used to have one but it was very underused,due in the main i feel to the sucess of CTO. Maybe if one or two were prepared to take the time it would give an alternative platform to here which has a "semi official" site feel to it and they can be their own judges of whats acceptable.

footy mad

along the same lines but maybe this site could have a seperate part to the forum which could be self moderated but could have a disclaimer to say that posting is at scrutiny/mercy of other posters and responsibility should be the posters as things such as libelous posts may be prosecuted and shall not be moderated by the sites owners?

[blobs]

dont think a separate section would work, as some people simply take great pleasure in being offensive sitting behind a computer screen.

A subtle change would be to add members joining date underneath their post count. Wouldnt do a huge deal but it would make it easier to i.d. obvious wind up merchants. When ignored, tools usually die down

[ictchris]

Most football forums are full of ill-informed idiots arguing about things they barely understand and find impossible to articulate. Would we have it any other way? All forums have these debates, issues with 'schoolkid' posters, problems with the mods. To my mind it's part and parcel of a forum.

[Renegade]

No/limited posting rights for under 18's (make sure they can still read the forum)

From what I can see, I got chunk of the, shall we say, less bright posters, are over 18.

[blobs]

Most football forums are full of ill-informed idiots arguing about things they barely understand and find impossible to articulate. Would we have it any other way? All forums have these debates, issues with 'schoolkid' posters, problems with the mods. To my mind it's part and parcel of a forum.

agree with you to the most part but it isnt you dealing with the backlash. Perhaps it's a reflection on our fanbase. Quite a quiet passive bunch, famous 'family friendly' club. Thus the forum perhaps has some slightly sensitive members. just a thought

[RiG]

I feel that any exclusion of a poster from the foum based on age is ridiculous. Unless they are abusive and / or spam the forum then there is no reason not to allow them on the site. As ICTChris says every forum has their idiots. CTO isn't any different.

I'll ask again as no one has really answered the question - apart from suggesting banning a large core of our fanbase - but what would you want to see on CTO to make it a better site/ forum? It is the users of a site that make it what it is so what do you want to see more / less of?

Personally I think we need more user input into the site. A while ago Scotty ran a recruitment drive to get more folk to help out with articles for the site but I can count on one hand the number of reports that these folk have done. It's been a very disappointing return based on the initial interest shown.

Edited November 19, 2009 by RiG
Unable to spell simple words.

[ictchris]

I just read the 'Interesting' thread and, aside from a possible prosecution under the Trades Descriptions Act, I don't see anything wrong with it. A couple of posters had different opinions from other posters and there was a bit of discussion/debate/arguing about it. That's what the forum is about. There was no personal abuse of anyone and no breach of any forum rules that I could see. Perhaps we are all being too sensitive?

[FortressICT]

I know it's probably not allowed but you could mentio the website to get in more users. Like CaleyD could give it a mention at the home games before KO or HT.

[caley100]

No/limited posting rights for under 18's (make sure they can still read the forum)

From what I can see, I got chunk of the, shall we say, less bright posters, are over 18.

Eh.. forgive me for being older.. but what does this mean? what a brightness got to do with being a fan?

Anyway, since we have been struggling in the SPL, IE last two seasons and also this season it looks to me that most of the really negative posts are from younger forum members, impatient/impetous younger fans post what they feel and dont look at the bigger picture.

The fans who have also seen the rise of ICT though the leagues to the SPL have more understanding of our place in football and lets face it we are a wee team.

I get the feeling that this topic has aired a lot of feelings and things will quieten down for a spell untill.....

[Harry Chibber]

On the Japanese version of Facebook, called Mixi, membership is by invitation only. That may work?

Think that's an excellent idea as long as I would get an invite

Demonoid (downloading site) work in a similar way

Most football forums are full of ill-informed idiots arguing about things they barely understand and find impossible to articulate. Would we have it any other way? All forums have these debates, issues with 'schoolkid' posters, problems with the mods. To my mind it's part and parcel of a forum.

I can certainly see where Scotty/Caley D are coming from on this though... where's the reward for them taking the time to run the site only to be abused for the way it's run or have to deal with nimrods going onto P&B after they're banned calling them all sorts. I wouldn't, in fact, that's why I turned down the oppertunity to be a moderator because it's just too much hassle!

I've been posting here for 6/7 years, love it, especially living in Glasgow where I have limited folk to discuss ICT related topics. I can't afford to make as many games anymore (grown up resposiblities and all that) so this is one of the few links I have to my claims of being an ICT supporter. Scotty/Caley D I hope you can keep the forum going because I would be truely gutted if it wasn't here anymore because of a few idiots that don't realise the work that goes in behind the scenes.. and that not everything deserves to be handed to them on a plate.

Helindee has it spot on though, I think the majority of posts are negative at the moment because a lot of the fans might not have witnessed the work the club/fans/playes put in to making us an SPL club (until recently). Now we're not living up to their expectations all they can do is rant & argue

[KingBeastie]

Ok, I haven't read every single response on this thread but here's my view on matters (for what it is worth!)

The site (forum content) has no doubt gone severely downlhill over the past few years and it is far from an enjoyable place to be compared to what it used to be like.

I don't think limiting people to a few posts when they first register is a good idea, i think it'd take new people too long to feel a part of things. My first few posts were mostly humour based and I got into chats with a few folk straight away. If you cannot reply you cannot really be a part of things.

As for getting younger posters to use a seperate forum i feel this too is not a good idea. We didn't need to do this in the past so there is no need we should do now. Besides I'm neither an old duffer (yet) or 'yoof' so where does this leave folk like me?

I feel the answer is pretty simple yet will certainly p1ss a few people off.

In short - just ban the @rseh0les.

There are too many people on this site who think it is acceptable to give the mods lots of work and throw abuse about wherever they want. How, why and when this attitude developed does not matter. If someone does not agree with you it does not mean you start dishing out personal abuse - try that in a pub and see what happens.

I think a system should be put in place along the lines off:

- You get one warning

- after this you get banned for a month

- after this if you still havent learned your lesson you get banned for 3 months

- if your still being an erse then you are banned for life.

No appeals process or anything - there is a perfectly good moderation team here who are not heavy handed.

Too many people add nothing positive to this site merely take away from it and leave a bad atmosphere.

Sadly if the site stays the way it is and Scotty decides it's coming offline then the way things currently are I wouldn't really be too bothered and that is a very sad state of affairs.

Scotty and Don - you have both put far too much time and effort into this site over the years to let a small group of idiots spoil it for the majority. Stand up for yourselves and get hard with folk, this shouldn't be a depressing chore for you.

This may seem harsh but sometimes you have to cut out a cancer to save the rest.

[Guest]

To take the apology thread by DalneighCaley a down a different angle, I think that this thread is starting to have the desired effect. People are starting to understand the views of others a little better.

I have no idea of what led to the apology, it was obviously out of order, but in keeping with the subject matter of both threads I was wondering whether there would be any chance of loosening the ban on talk about club employees and past employees? I am not wanting to be able to have flamefests started but if someone at the club finds themselves in the news for some reason then I feel that reasonable discussion should be allowed. Examples which spring to mind are Ritchie Hart's conviction, Ross Tokely's indiscretions, I am sure there will be more especially as the trial date for a former player is set for this month.

[CaleyD]

I would like to put this old v young argument to bed. As I said earlier, we don't have any more trouble from younger posters than we do from older ones. The issues that arise with each group are different and they may get handled differently, but in terms of volume of "incidents" we have a fairly even spread. On that basis I don't see any need for age related sanctions/limitations or the like.

I was 17 when CTO first appeared on the scene (I originally posted as BigD) and I was probably a bigger pain in the erse than any of the younger posters we have on the forum today. Why? Because like the younger guys today I thought it was great that I had somewhere I could go an post as much as I liked in whatever manner I liked...it wasn't "real world" so what did it matter if I called a few people names or wound people up?

I had more than my share of run ins with Scotty and i've probably spent more time banned from CTO than any other user on the site. How does that person end up being me, here today trying to tackle the exact same problems I was creating back then? It happens because instead of lowering themselves to my level, the users back then took the time to show a young guy with a shared interest in ICT the error of my ways. This is perhaps why I am a bit more tolerant when dealing with the younger users and am of the opinion that the older ones should know better.

We have other users like that on the site today, ones who take the time to have a word with someone who seems to be falling foul of the rules on a regular basis. Unfortunately we also have users who seem intent on leading younger users astray or using them to do their dirty work.

Some people think we're stupid, that we don't know what's going on. We generally have a good handle on what's happening, but perhaps we are a little stupid for allowing some of it to manifest itself on the site instead of nipping it in the bud before it starts. The problem is, if we act before something is in the public eye then we get the old accusations of being heavy handed, censorship etc etc.

Public floggings and (s)hit lists are not my favoured way to go.....we're trying to stop the witch hunts, not create more.

From reading the input provided so far I am liking the sound of replacing the rules (certainly ones pertaining to what/how people should or should not post) with a Code of Conduct. That coupled with a 3 strikes and your out....3 outs and your not coming back approach to dealing with any incidents could provide a much easier to understand system which also reduces the burden on moderators and allows them to get back to enjoying the site in the same way as the rest of the users.

There's not much we can do about the negativity, as has been stated, this is something that reflects the current mood of the fans in relation to the club/team. What we can and will do though is stamp out the abuse...be that abusing each other, stadium staff, players, manager or whatever. There's no need for it and criticism can be passed without the need for abuse.

Besides our (CTO's) interaction with fans on a daily basis we also petition the club and other parties about things that can be done to improve the whole setup. The more time we have to spend on dealing with crap on here, the less time we have to work on trying to get things like online highlights or improve the matchday tweeting, or pressing for online fan commentary. Boardroom Banter has slipped, partly because of lack of time and drive on our part....match previews and reports are becoming more sporadic because we don't have the time to do them all ourselves and those who volunteered haven't delivered. We're struggling to get the stats up to date, photo galleries have all but stopped this season, blogging which had started to pick up has stalled. Those who were assisting with the various prediciton leagues have now had to take over most if not all the work themselves because we're dealing with idiots or simply don't have any inclination to sign on to the forum because we know there's going to be another chit storm to deal with. So it's not just the forum itself that's suffering, there's wider implications which have to be considered also.

Their comes a time when fans/site users have to change their mindset. For years now it's been take take take, but those willing to give are burning out or finding themselves stretched too far. It's time for others to step up to the plate, to realise that their has to be a bit of give and whilst not everyone can write a report or be a moderator or whatever, they can make changes in how they interact with the site/forum/other users/fans which reduce the burden.

We'll play our part and do as much as we can, but you all have to do your bit as well.