Youngsters - how long is long enough

[Alex MacLeod]

Just you lot look out for golden boot McAllister

[Scotty]

Just you lot look out for golden boot McAllister

Although I am not convinced it will happen, that would be great Alex. I would say that this season is probably Rory's last chance to impress. The frustrating thing is that most of us know or acknowledge that he can play well as he has shown that in small bursts over the last few seasons but unfortunately he has flattered to deceive more times than he has impressed.

As I said in another thread, perhaps some of thismay be because the youngsters lost focus last year and didnt try as hard as they could because they knew no matter what happened they were behind Niculae, Wyness, Bayne and even pre-injury Brewster in the pecking order. This year we dont have a recognised strike force so 100% effort and consistency may see one or more of them stake a claim for those starting spots. Hopefully this will focus them all into doing their very best and we will see some good work out of the likes of Rory as well as the others. I hope so.

[Harry Chibber]

Just you lot look out for golden boot McAllister

Although I am not convinced it will happen, that would be great Alex. I would say that this season is probably Rory's last chance to impress. The frustrating thing is that most of us know or acknowledge that he can play well as he has shown that in small bursts over the last few seasons but unfortunately he has flattered to deceive more times than he has impressed.

As I said in another thread, perhaps some of thismay be because the youngsters lost focus last year and didnt try as hard as they could because they knew no matter what happened they were behind Niculae, Wyness, Bayne and even pre-injury Brewster in the pecking order. This year we dont have a recognised strike force so 100% effort and consistency may see one or more of them stake a claim for those starting spots. Hopefully this will focus them all into doing their very best and we will see some good work out of the likes of Rory as well as the others. I hope so.

rubbish, I'm sick of the Rory bashing that goes on in this forum.  It's embarrasing that one of our own receives such abuse (I know you have been PC with your post Scotty but plenty of others have consistently barrated him).  Rory is a 22yr old player recognised on an international level with bags full potential and I'd love it.... I'd fecking love it if he showed exactly what he's capable of this season but to say that this is his last chance when he has never been given a run of games to prove himself is crazy.

Scotty look at the situation we are currently in trying to find new forwards, even if Rory doesn't get his oppertunity this season he is still a very reliable squad player who has scored goals in the SPL

I'd personally prefer to give Rory a chance than sign that dancing muppet Eliott... 

[Harry Chibber]

btw it's just that line I disagree with the rest is fair enough  :023:

had to work on a Saturday so needed to have a rant at something

[Scotty]

I'd personally prefer to give Rory a chance than sign that dancing muppet Eliott...

Dont think I would argue with that.

As for Rory, I want him to do well, I REALLY DO !!! I want ANY player wearing an ICT strip to do well but he has to up his game somewhat. He has scored 5 goals in 44 games and that is not good enough for a striker. I will concede that many of those games were brief appearances from the subs bench so the total may look worse than it really is, but if we discard the sub appearances he has made 13 starts and in those games scored twice (V Gretna and V Ayr). [15% strike rate]

His 3 goals from the subs bench were V Dunfermline (88mins after coming on in 76), V Motherwell (88 mins after coming on in 83), and V Dumbarton (72 mins after coming on in 67) so he can definitely do it from there too even on short appearances ... if his head is together.

He has had a good pre-season so far and scored a few so lets just hope it has increased his confidence to the point were he can regularly hit the back of the net for the first team if selected. I would love to be sitting here this time next year saying that we were right to persevere with the lad and how well ALL our youngsters did in the 08/09 campaign.

EDIT: correction for above - i mentioned 5 goals in 44 games. he has actually made 44 sub appearances and 13 starts so its 5 goals in 57

[Yngwie]

I don't see how Harry can be annoyed at Scotty for saying this season is Rory's last chance when it clearly is. Let's hope he takes it. The pre-season games make him sound more promising than before.

[Harry Chibber]

I'd personally prefer to give Rory a chance than sign that dancing muppet Eliott... 

Dont think I would argue with that.

As for Rory, I want him to do well, I REALLY DO !!! I want ANY player wearing an ICT strip to do well but he has to up his game somewhat. He has scored 5 goals in 44 games and that is not good enough for a striker. I will concede that many of those games were brief appearances from the subs bench so the total may look worse than it really is, but if we discard the sub appearances he has made 13 starts and in those games scored twice (V Gretna and V Ayr). [15% strike rate]

His 3 goals from the subs bench were V Dunfermline (88mins after coming on in 76), V Motherwell (88 mins after coming on in 83), and V Dumbarton (72 mins after coming on in 67) so he can definitely do it from there too even on short appearances ... if his head is together.

He has had a good pre-season so far and scored a few so lets just hope it has increased his confidence to the point were he can regularly hit the back of the net for the first team if selected. I would love to be sitting here this time next year saying that we were right to persevere with the lad and how well ALL our youngsters did in the 08/09 campaign.

When I said a run of games previously I meant 5+ starts back to back and then if he hasn't produced the goods I'll concede that he has something to prove.  But at the moment I think he is our brightest prospect at the club and the majority of our fans have done nothing but discourage the guy before he has even attempted to jump the first hurdle.    He has scored goals at this level so he is already more experienced than half the forwards we currently have and he is one of the youngest

[Harry Chibber]

I don't see how Harry can be annoyed at Scotty for saying this season is Rory's last chance when it clearly is. Let's hope he takes it. The pre-season games make him sound more promising than before.

Does that also apply for Zander, Wood, Vigurs & Kerr?

[Scotty]

When I said a run of games previously I meant 5+ starts back to back and then if he hasn't produced the goods I'll concede that he has something to prove.  But at the moment I think he is our brightest prospect at the club and the majority of our fans have done nothing but discourage the guy before he has even attempted to jump the first hurdle.    He has scored goals at this level so he is already more experienced than half the forwards we currently have and he is one of the youngest

I will give you that one. the most he has made is 3 back to back starts.

[Scotty]

Does that also apply for Zander, Wood, Vigurs & Kerr?

I wouldnt say so .....

Rory has made appearances in each of the last 4 seasons racking up 13 starts and 44 sub appearances.

Zander has started 2 games and come on as a sub in 4

Vigurs has started 1 game and come on as a sub in 3

Kerr has made a single sub appearance

Wood & Gillespie have yet to appear for the first team

[Harry Chibber]

Does that also apply for Zander, Wood, Vigurs & Kerr?

I wouldnt say so .....

Rory has made appearances in each of the last 4 seasons racking up 13 starts and 44 sub appearances.

Zander has started 2 games and come on as a sub in 4

Vigurs has started 1 game and come on as a sub in 3

Kerr has made a single sub appearance

Wood & Gillespie have yet to appear for the first team

So Rory should be punished for being ahead of schedule???

[Scotty]

I didnt say that. I merely pointed out that he has made considerably more appearances than the other youngsters.

I am applying the same logic that others are using to back up Rory. You cant judge him till he has had 5 back to back games, or you cant judge him because he only comes off the bench .... well if thats the case, how can you judge someone who has not made a single appearance fr the club in the same way as someone who will make their 60th soon.

Let me re-iterate though ... I am not bashing Rory, I am saying I hope he does it ... but he himself needs to step up a gear and make it impossible for Brewster to NOT give him the 5 back to back games you speak of. If he can do that and start banging a few goals in then FANTASTIC.

I am going to split this topic off and call it something like youngsters .... or maybe merge it into the forward line thread because, as interesting as this discussion is, it has gone way off topic from the original.

[Guest birdog]

To answer the topic of the question, long enough is when the coaches decide that the work they are doing with these youngsters is progressing too slowly or not at all. I am not going to post my personal opinion of Rory because I do not believe I have seen him play often enough to form an opinion of his ability, I will say though that the coaching staff have been working with the lad for a good while now and if they are worth their wage then they obviously believe that he is on his way to doing something. At the end of the day it is the coaches at ICT who will decide when a player is worthy of pulling on the shirt and when he should be moved on to something else, if they fail by getting rid of the next star player or if they end up backing a donkey for too long then it is them who should be answerable.

Good points on this thread by both Harry and Scotty.

[Guest WynessLegend]

I don't see how Harry can be annoyed at Scotty for saying this season is Rory's last chance when it clearly is. Let's hope he takes it. The pre-season games make him sound more promising than before.

Even at the County game where the North Stand sang "we're taking the p$ss, we've brought Rory on" when he came on as a substitute?

I like to hear the crowd get behind our players and believe that a positive crowd helps the team ..........

but I just can't do it for Rory.

He doesn't look like a footballer, he doesn't run like a footballer and he certainly doesn't play like a footballer.

This "promising youngster" is now 22 and I believe we are definitely at the "long enough" stage with him.

[Alex MacLeod]

He doesn't look like a footballer, he doesn't run like a footballer and he certainly doesn't play like a footballer.

Bit like Crouch then?

[CaleyD]

Every player is different and I don't think you can set an age or length of time on a blanket basis.

Those who have seen Rory more often in the reserves have probably seen the best of him and I just keep waiting and hoping that he can make that final step up to becoming considered a regular started in the SPL....I honestly believe he's not far off it.

However, I've been waiting for him to make that final push for the past 3 seasons and he's never been able to show he's capable or deserving of a run as his consistency has been somewhat lacking for the first team and their comes a point where you really have to doubt if he will do it for us, playing in the systems we play.

It's all fair and well saying give him a run of 5 games...but in the SPL 5 games can be the difference between survival or languishing a long way off at the bottom of the table and without someone alongside to carry a player (if need be) then it's simply not a luxury many teams can afford.

Last season, we saw a few glimpses of decent play from Rory, but it was when he had Marius or Brewster on the pitch alongside him drawing the defenders away and giving him space to play....we're not going to have that this season unless we sign a proven striker or one of the others gets off to a really hot start and opposition start having to mark them out of the game and leaving Rory the luxury of space.

That's the reason why I think this could very well be the make or break season for Rory in terms of extending his career at ICT, and with it looking like he's going to have guys just as young and less experienced alongside him then it's going to be tough as he could very well find himself as the guy being expected to take the lead up front...certainly at the start of the season.  That's a lot of pressure for a seasoned and prolific scorer, let alone a young lad who's yet to really make a mark on the game.

So, I agree with those who say that it really is make or break time for the lad....and I wouldn't necessarily argue with those who say he's perhaps looking at a season he might not have proved serving off.

As for other youngsters....Zander is probably looking at this season as his chance to secure himself a regular place on the bench and get some time on the park and possibly a couple of starts.....how he does from there we can argue over in 12 month.  Vigurs and Woods are probably in a similar boat.

The other young lads will benefit from training with the "big boys", but I don't think we should be expecting anything by way of pitch time until nearer the end of the season or if injuries dictate otherwise...that's not to say we won't see them, if they're good enough then bring them on, it's just that they shouldn't be judged if we aren't seeing them as stepping up from the youths to first squad doesn't mean they are ready for a starting slot.

[Scarlet Pimple]

The cat calls and bashing that Rory has had is disgraceful. It's a wonder he himself has not given up the ghost.

He may be a late developer and to write him off at 22 is really hilarious. If the Gaffer does not think he is quite ready for a few games in the first team what is wrong with a lot more games on loan to another club?

And what IS WRONG WITH SHOUTS OF ENCOURAGEMENT INSTEAD OF CATCALLS AND INSULTS. It's easy to be a backseat driver.

[strathyjags]

i looks to me like this will be make r break season for mcallister,brew has been asking him in pre season for a reaction and seemnigly on sat he defiently delivered,ok it may not have been against a spl standard team,but a lot of strikers form is about confidence(look at denzil) and seemnigly everyone raving about mcallisters 3rd ,where he lobbed the keeper,i think brewster will give him a good few starts this season to try and bring him on,but the 1 thing that will stop him is the boo boys,maybe he feels more relaxed playing pre-season games,especially abroad,as he has no fans getting on his back,hopefully if he starts regular fans will lay of him,as certain other ict players do very little ,yet no-one gets on there backs as much

if mcallsiter doesnt show hes capable of banging them in before christmas,i reckon he,ll be away in the jan window

[SMEE]

The sooner everyone agrees he is sub standard, the sooner we can free up a wage for a more worthy individual.

[kiltarlity]

New Season fresh start!

McAllister can and will score goals he just needs encouragment and a few games in a row to find his confidence.

Graham

[Alex MacLeod]

Is there not enough McAllister bashing on other threads without starting another one.

Well said Graham. Get behind the team and show real support.

[SMEE]

Just for the record....I wasnt bashing, i was stating my opinion based on actual events.

[strathyjags]

Is there not enough McAllister bashing on other threads without starting another one.

Well said Graham. Get behind the team and show real support.

where was i bashing him?? :029: :014:

[Alex MacLeod]

Just for the record....I wasnt bashing, i was stating my opinion based on actual events.

And would the actual events include his tally so far this pre-season. Nine I believe. Someone can likely correct me if I'm wrong but I believe thats the most any of our strikers has scored in a pre-season, including Wyness and Dargo. Two very experienced strikers. These games may be meaningless to some but the ball still has to go into the net.

I dont know if Rory will cut it with the big boys but I'm prepared to reserve judgement until, as was said on another thread, he's played 5 or 6 back to back competitive games.

And Marty, I think you'll find that Danish football is at the very least on a par with what Scotland has to offer. Herfolge are chomping at the bit to get back into the Superleague where they had been previously for 16 seasons. This league is reputed to be the superior of all the Scandinavian countries. The Danish first div is much like ours with the top half dozen closely competing to try and win promotion every season

[Mee]

Brewster took Rory into the first team squad too early IMO and he's always struggled with fans expectations of him. He is capable of skillful footie but lacks confidence and / or inspiration and getting booed as soon as he starts warming up is not going to help with that.  :018: