Defender on trial

[AJS]

I got this i think and as it stands Rooney, Duncan, Barrowman and Munro have expiring contracts at the end of next season.

Foran, Zadi, McBain, Odhiambo and Proctor signed 1 year deals when retained and they are up in July.

Stratford, Hayes, Sanchez, Cox, Eagle, and Golabek all joined on 1 year deals in the summer, also up in July.

Esson and Imrie joined on 2 year deals which finish this summer.

Tokely signed a 2 year extension which finishes at the end of the season as well.

Allison, Ross and Shinnie i think may be on amateur terms right now.

Butcher and Malpas have deals finishing in July as well.

So there you have it. 4 out of 21 secure for next season. Really 3 as i'm guessing we are trying to get shot of Barrowman, even the managment team are insecure. It isn't rocket science, it is common sense. Get some sort of package in place and get the long term future of this club sorted!

[TheKnowledge]

It needs to start with the management team doesn't it. Either they're good enough, or they're not. Sign them up or sign up somebody else. Then the players can decide if they want to stay or not.

P.S

Who was I talking to there?

[Scotty]

the last few posts are extremely scary !!!

At the end of the day, players have families to consider, mortgages to pay etc etc etc and if our club cannot offer them any semblance of job security for another year or 2 years then we simply cannot moan and groan at ANY player when they choose to sign a pre-contract with any other team.

It amazes me that we are expected to believe the bull*** excuse that "we do not know what league we will be in next season" when County are also in the same boat yet have now got basically their whole first team squad signed up on extensions.

Note to the board - just in case you havent looked at the league table lately .... Although we are all eternal optimists and wont quit believing until its mathematically impossible, it is highly unlikely that we are going to win this division this season.

There are so many rumours surrounding our perilous financial state, and if even half of them are true, it cannot fail to affect the morale and team spirit that is required to grind out results and build a winning run, so unless you are fearing we are going to drop to Div2 then you have to plan for Div1 next season and get some of these players signed up or at the very least, if you cant make players "an offer they cant refuse" at least make them one they can consider.

To do anything else is nonsensical and a dereliction of the duties you were elected by the shareholders of this club to do. If you allow a mass exodus at the end of this season by not acting or sitting idly by while others do not act then you should consider your positions untenable before a groundswell movement of small shareholders calling for a vote of no confidence in the board begins .... which I believe it will if this apparent slide in our fortunes continues.

[AJS]

Says in the courier Butcher hopes to bring in a few trialists this week.

Who knows what gems he will find. :004:

[DornochJAGGIE]

Says in the courier Butcher hopes to bring in a few trialists this week.

Who knows what gems he will find. :004:

Probably of the same standard as Eagle, and Stratford...

[starchief]

Absolutely Scotty. How about we do what most clubs do? We offer them a contract for the league we are in with incentives for promotion, plus a clause for relegation.

This is the same idiocy we've put up with for years. The one that let all our good players leave for nothing or next to nothing. For the last few years, we've been in the same boat as the rest of the bottom six teams and this year, we're the same as the rest of Division One. I'd love the Board to tell us why exactly we're so different from Queen of the South or Airdrie.

[alternative maryhill]

Says in the courier Butcher hopes to bring in a few trialists this week.

Who knows what gems he will find. :cry01:

Probably of the same standard as Eagle, and Stratford...

I'm a bit surprised by the persistent cynicism. Surely Butcher's signing record isn't significantly worse than those of any of the previous managers, and arguably, he's been working in more difficult circumstances. Eagle and Stratford haven't worked out; Hayes and Foran have; Bulvitis has played well over the past two or three months after finding his feet and Sanchez seems to divide the support (for what it's worth, I think he's been effective playing behind Rooney and has the potential to improve further, despite his profligacy in front of goal). So that's at least a 50% success record in the transfer market: not brilliant, but probably quite typical of most football managers. I'm as concerned as anyone about the future of the club, but I don't think we can lay much blame at Terry Butcher's door: any manager takes time to rebuild a team and there's been plenty of evidence that he's started to do that over the past few games.

[Scotty]

I'm a bit surprised by the persistent cynicism. Surely Butcher's signing record isn't significantly worse than those of any of the previous managers, and arguably, he's been working in more difficult circumstances. Eagle and Stratford haven't worked out; Hayes and Foran have; Bulvitis has played well over the past two or three months after finding his feet and Sanchez seems to divide the support (for what it's worth, I think he's been effective playing behind Rooney and has the potential to improve further, despite his profligacy in front of goal). So that's at least a 50% success record in the transfer market: not brilliant, but probably quite typical of most football managers. I'm as concerned as anyone about the future of the club, but I don't think we can lay much blame at Terry Butcher's door: any manager takes time to rebuild a team and there's been plenty of evidence that he's started to do that over the past few games.

I dont really have a problem with Butcher's signings, some have worked, some havent (yet?) and some parts of the squad - both good and perhaps not so good - he obviously inherited ... I pretty much agree with your assessment especially about the "working in more difficult circumstances" part.

My growing concern right now is the often repeated phrase that "we dont know what division we will be in next season" as an excuse to justify the lack of contract offers to almost our entire squad. It just doesnt wash and if it is not sorted out before too long we may go into next season as favourites ....... but this time, favourites for the drop.

[alternative maryhill]

I'm a bit surprised by the persistent cynicism. Surely Butcher's signing record isn't significantly worse than those of any of the previous managers, and arguably, he's been working in more difficult circumstances. Eagle and Stratford haven't worked out; Hayes and Foran have; Bulvitis has played well over the past two or three months after finding his feet and Sanchez seems to divide the support (for what it's worth, I think he's been effective playing behind Rooney and has the potential to improve further, despite his profligacy in front of goal). So that's at least a 50% success record in the transfer market: not brilliant, but probably quite typical of most football managers. I'm as concerned as anyone about the future of the club, but I don't think we can lay much blame at Terry Butcher's door: any manager takes time to rebuild a team and there's been plenty of evidence that he's started to do that over the past few games.

I dont really have a problem with Butcher's signings, some have worked, some havent (yet?) and some parts of the squad - both good and perhaps not so good - he obviously inherited ... I pretty much agree with your assessment especially about the "working in more difficult circumstances" part.

My growing concern right now is the often repeated phrase that "we dont know what division we will be in next season" as an excuse to justify the lack of contract offers to almost our entire squad. It just doesnt wash and if it is not sorted out before too long we may go into next season as favourites ....... but this time, favourites for the drop.

I couldn't agree with you more, Scotty, but that seems to be one area the team management has little control over.

[tokelyisvictorious]

Seems like my ICT correspondent was telling the truth after all then. I didn't believe the '4 players left contracted beyond the end of this summer' story, and couldn't be bothered checking, but now a couple have run through the team and verified it, seems crazy this is where we find ourselves.

After 5 years in the SPL, and from what we were fed by the board, not doing too badly financially, and now we can't afford to hand a new contract to a club legend like Tokely or talent with a future like Bully. We must be one of the only clubs in Scotland not to know how we are financially. The silence from the club is deafening. The big issue is that a new man will need to come in and will need to rebuild an entire club. We will be starting from scratch, aside from reputation and the board's ineptitude.

The comment from Butcher about the fee only being small seems like a slight complaint/dig at the board. I'd like to see him go on decent circumstances with the fans, here's hoping he can shed a bit of light on the situation nearer the end of the season.

Edited January 26, 2010 by tokelyisvictorious

[caleyboy]

Absolutely Scotty. How about we do what most clubs do? We offer them a contract for the league we are in with incentives for promotion, plus a clause for relegation.

This is the same idiocy we've put up with for years. The one that let all our good players leave for nothing or next to nothing. For the last few years, we've been in the same boat as the rest of the bottom six teams and this year, we're the same as the rest of Division One. I'd love the Board to tell us why exactly we're so different from Queen of the South or Airdrie.

I think this may be quite simple. Only ourselves and Ross County have a DoF. At every other club the manager deals with all player situations. Having said that, Ross County seem to follow the right road - so maybe, just maybe, it's just the way we do it - or don't do it. :cry01: :tonguecheek: Unless we can get fresh investment into the club, seriously review each and EVERY board member and quickly get our fingers out, we will be sitting in the SECOND Division!

[TheKnowledge]

Note to the board - just in case you havent looked at the league table lately .... Although we are all eternal optimists and wont quit believing until its mathematically impossible, it is highly unlikely that we are going to win this division this season.

Reading that made me think, what if the board don't want to commit to first division players now, incase their move is seen as a lack of faith in the management and squad? Of course, if they offer SPL wages and promises the now, they could completely butt savage us if/when/in the unlikely/likely circumstances we don't go up. In saying that, I guess they are there to make those decisions, so they should.

[TheKnowledge]

we will be sitting in the SECOND Division!

Language!

[Jay_7]

It's obviously a bit beyond Bennets "ability" to come up with a contract that contains a promotion clause. Clearly the only sensible option open to us at this moment in time is to offer all the guys that we want to keep a contract based on life in the First Division but include a clause that says "if we get promoted, then you'll earn x% more than your First Division wages"...

Or is it just me that see's this?... :tonguecheek:

I'm f**king embarrased to be an ICT fan right now. Our board are beyond inept, beyond incompetent. Just the mere fact that the likes of George Fraser and Graham Bennett have the brass neck to call themselves "Chairman" or "Director of Football" of our club, makes my blood boil.

How dare they fail to act in their positions of responsibility to see that our club succeeds?

The only thing we can be sure of right now is that change is on the horizon. As it is, the club simply cannot continue under the despotism of the tyrant, Sutherland. If this continues, we are doomed and the change will be: club, no more. Alternatively and all together a lot less likely, a saviour can emerge from the shadows where he layeth in wait to give the tyrant an offer he cannot refuse. That change will at least prolong the life of the club, but the question would then be, for how long?

[Alex MacLeod]

Absolutely Scotty. How about we do what most clubs do? We offer them a contract for the league we are in with incentives for promotion, plus a clause for relegation.

This is the same idiocy we've put up with for years. The one that let all our good players leave for nothing or next to nothing. For the last few years, we've been in the same boat as the rest of the bottom six teams and this year, we're the same as the rest of Division One. I'd love the Board to tell us why exactly we're so different from Queen of the South or Airdrie.

I think this may be quite simple. Only ourselves and Ross County have a DoF. At every other club the manager deals with all player situations. Having said that, Ross County seem to follow the right road - so maybe, just maybe, it's just the way we do it - or don't do it. :cry01: :tonguecheek: Unless we can get fresh investment into the club, seriously review each and EVERY board member and quickly get our fingers out, we will be sitting in the SECOND Division!

Point 1. Many clubs have DoF. Bear in mind we dont actually have managers. We have Head Coaches.

Point 2. Ross County have the luxury of some recent investment

Point 3. The 'Board' are made up of people deemed to be the best people to run the club. They are not the people with the money to help the club. There is every chance the board are doing the best they can but just don't have the investment to do better.

The one thing that is a big factor in financing scottish football is advertising. No longer is there first div coverage so no longer do advertisers want to invest.

In England demotion is not such a big deal. TV coverage goes right down to Div 1. Go down from Premiership and get 10 million parachute. Go down from Championship and get a mill. Compare that with our 250k.

[Renegade]

Point 1. Many clubs have DoF. Bear in mind we dont actually have managers. We have Head Coaches.

Are you sure about that? IIRC Butcher is down as manager, as was Brewster before him. Charlie Christie was not though and was down as "Head Coach", from what I can remember.

[Renegade]

Where's that bloke MacGregor when you need him eh?

[Scotty]

Reading that made me think, what if the board don't want to commit to first division players now, incase their move is seen as a lack of faith in the management and squad?

I dont think that is the thinking but if it is it is a very dangerous tactic !!!

I am not sure of current contract dates but will take the number "4" quoted earlier as how many players in our squad are not free to talk to other clubs RIGHT NOW as it sounds reasonably accurate .... The other 20+ players in our squad have personal lives, families, mortgages etc to consider so what do they do? Is it fair on them to say, wait until May, June, July or whatever to find out if you still have a job in August? If it were me, I know what I would do and that would be to tell my agent to start looking around pronto as my family and personal wellbeing are far more important than that of my employer.....

Conversely, if my employer were to say, "look, here is the best offer we can make you right now" and it was a first division salary (with win bonuses) and a promotion wage rise clause of 'X'% then I know I would seriously consider it and then work my bo*****s off to try and gain promotion so I could get that wage rise !

The 'Board' are made up of people deemed to be the best people to run the club. They are not the people with the money to help the club. There is every chance the board are doing the best they can but just don't have the investment to do better.

Indeed, and I believe this was once the case. Those who took us from the 3rd division to the SPL (all of them) are to be applauded for what they did in the past ... but that is in the past. We are in the here and now and as far as I can see we are in some extremely soapy bubble financially and there is zero in terms of positive signs coming from our club and even less by way of communication ...... We have laid off a lot of staff, a few others have left because of things going on behind the scenes, we are told there is money set aside to pay off Niculae yet we drag it on and on and then offer 35K, we are told that we could secure Bully for "a small fee" yet cant get that done .... need I go on !!!

As for investment .... Other clubs like County and Dundee have ADVERTISED for investors and sold shares to them ... we have several million outstanding unissued shares available ....... join the dots !!!

[Council Juice]

I remember a couple of years ago when we made the club a private company to allow investment without having to sell a share of the Club (I think this was the reason - my knowledge on shares and business is vague to put it nicely)

Now we did that to encourage fresh investment... but then it seems forgot to do the advertising. Of course that takes initiative and they had just used up all their yearly allowance of that it seems.

Then Allan Savage came along and did invest money, however there seemed to be disagreement on how to run the club and he was moved out.

I dont know but it always seems to me that the board say "come and invest in our club, but dont expect a say on what to do with your dosh" I've always got that feeling.

Imagine going on dragons den and trying to secure an investment and not saying what you would do with the money.

- Im out!

[Scarlet Pimple]

So you think persons would buy shares in the club at this time of uncertainty?

If yes, do you mean business persons? You know, ones maybe with some disposable income?

If so, here is my final question...Are these rhetorical questions?

[Council Juice]

I dont nessesarily think a money making business person would no.

However my point was that the club haven't been all that upfront about wanting some if they do indeed need it.

And that if someone did offer the money, I get the impression the board wouldn't give him a say in how his investment was used and he would retract his offer. As I say its just an impression I get.

[AJS]

Says in the courier Butcher hopes to bring in a few trialists this week.

Who knows what gems he will find. :D

Probably of the same standard as Eagle, and Stratford...

I'm a bit surprised by the persistent cynicism. Surely Butcher's signing record isn't significantly worse than those of any of the previous managers, and arguably, he's been working in more difficult circumstances. Eagle and Stratford haven't worked out; Hayes and Foran have; Bulvitis has played well over the past two or three months after finding his feet and Sanchez seems to divide the support (for what it's worth, I think he's been effective playing behind Rooney and has the potential to improve further, despite his profligacy in front of goal). So that's at least a 50% success record in the transfer market: not brilliant, but probably quite typical of most football managers. I'm as concerned as anyone about the future of the club, but I don't think we can lay much blame at Terry Butcher's door: any manager takes time to rebuild a team and there's been plenty of evidence that he's started to do that over the past few games.

Not knocking Butcher's signings in paticular. Brewster was worse. He brought in many trialists and i think the only one he signed was Lionel.

I'm more concerned about the fact that we will pay for them to come over for a trial and they will be bull. Tel found some gems and some real duds but i'm not convinced we have the money to get players in. Players HAVE to go first.

Edited January 27, 2010 by ajsict92

[caleyboy]

Absolutely Scotty. How about we do what most clubs do? We offer them a contract for the league we are in with incentives for promotion, plus a clause for relegation.

This is the same idiocy we've put up with for years. The one that let all our good players leave for nothing or next to nothing. For the last few years, we've been in the same boat as the rest of the bottom six teams and this year, we're the same as the rest of Division One. I'd love the Board to tell us why exactly we're so different from Queen of the South or Airdrie.

I think this may be quite simple. Only ourselves and Ross County have a DoF. At every other club the manager deals with all player situations. Having said that, Ross County seem to follow the right road - so maybe, just maybe, it's just the way we do it - or don't do it. :( :D Unless we can get fresh investment into the club, seriously review each and EVERY board member and quickly get our fingers out, we will be sitting in the SECOND Division!

Point 1. Many clubs have DoF. Bear in mind we dont actually have managers. We have Head Coaches.

Point 2. Ross County have the luxury of some recent investment

Point 3. The 'Board' are made up of people deemed to be the best people to run the club. They are not the people with the money to help the club. There is every chance the board are doing the best they can but just don't have the investment to do better.

Point 1: I really would like you to tell me which other 1st Div teams and for that matter Prem Div teams have a DoF?

Point 2: Our board is made up of people who Sutherland knows will not rock his boat and a number have substantial funds which they have NOT invested in the business they are running (ICT).

The time for change is NOW, before we drift further away from the top flight. It is unlikely that we will attract the investment needed as long as Sutherland has control. Do we all now see the problem?

Edited January 27, 2010 by caleyboy

[Council Juice]

Is this the most off topic, topic, ever? Discuss.

[Scotty]

I'm more concerned about the fact that we will pay for them to come over for a trial and they will be bull.

Not sure that we actually pay for them to come over. Most trialists pay their own way.

Point 1: I really would like you to tell me which other 1st Div teams and for that matter Prem Div teams have a DoF?

Point 2: Our board is made up of people who Sutherland knows will not rock his boat and a number have substantial funds which they have NOT invested in the business they are running (ICT).

The time for change is NOW, before we drift further away from the top flight. It is unlikely that we will attract the investment needed as long as Sutherland has control. Do we all now see the problem?

1. From the clubs' official websites

• Airdrie - No DoF, all 4 directors named Ballantyne but they do have a Fans Rep on the board
  
• Ayr - No DoF, 7 directors, 3 honorary Presidents
  
• Dundee - No Office Bearers listed
  
• Dunfermline - 12 Directors including a Director of Football (Jim Leishman)
  
• ICT - 6 directors including Grassa who is DoF and Vice-Chairman
  
• Morton - No DoF, 5 directors, 2 Honorary Vice Presidents (one of whom is Arthur Montford !!)
  
• Partick - No DoF, 8 directors, 1 Honorary President, 2 Honary V-Presidents, 1 Fan Rep
  
• QOS - No Office Bearers listed
  
• Raith - No DoF, 8 directors including a fans rep.
  
• County - No Office Bearers listed but they do show DoF (George Adams) in the contact page
  

[i also found it funny that Raith's ClubGuide pages are still using a format (complete with red/blue images completely ripped off from the old Sportnetwork ClubGuide we created about 10 years ago :022:]

2. I wont argue the perception of crony-ism in our ranks but I would argue the investment point. Most of our directors are running their own businesses first and foremost and ICT is not their main business. Should they be using funds from their own businesses or their own personal money to prop up ICT? thats a big debate. David Sutherland is maligned quite frequently but he has put a lot of money into the club over the years without much return other than being viewed as the top dog who has the ultimate say in how ICT is run.

However much we would like to think so, none of our board are rich enough to be a "sugar daddy" to ICT to the level we would like but I do think they could reduce the pressure on themselves if they could see their way to relinquishing at least some of the power they hold so that new investors could be encouraged to come in and make a positive contribution to ICT both in terms of finances and ideas.

Is this the most off topic, topic, ever? Discuss.

No. It has certainly 'drifted' but not the most off-topic ever !!! However, rather than back-seat moderate, just hit the report button and the mods will review it and if required split the topic in two or move some of the posts to another topic that is closer to the subject.

When you hit the report button, all mods can see this report as a new posting in the mod area and will discuss it and either agree or disagree with you ... if you just make a back-seat comment on a thread (any thread), it may be missed as not everyone reads all threads !