ICT or not ICT?

[bauhaus]

A couple of points. Scarlet - dropping the ate price by a mere fiver would have grave consequences. 5 x 3000 AVERAGE = ? 15,000 x 18 home games = ?270,000 = say goodbye to some of your better players. Uts hard enough to compete as it is with other SPL clubs. That can be good wages for maybe 3 or 4 of our top players. Without them we reduce our chances.

Smee - its funny how you notice the name getting mentioned in all contexts, The rarest is ICT, but always on the results we get our full title. But when it comes to radio commentry and TV, which has increased with Terry in charge as we seem to get a fair bit of airtime on SKY news with our old England captain, our profile is as good as ever. I do notice our Inverness only name gets some comments, but in games we aremost often referred to as Caley Thistle, Caley or Thistle in that order. Any way I dont care, aslong as we are getting mentions it is all good. Forgot the old Jags name gets the odd airing too, but that is about as often as we get called the Highlanders.

Dont change the name, its got everything it needs, respect of the past, and aknowledgement of the future

[Charles Bannerman]

Regarding all the so called stay aways from the merger, what was the average highland league attendance at the 2 clubs and what would be a realistic percentage of people staying away 5% ?

IMO the majority of so called abstainers are people who didn't actually go to any matches, have no interest in football but instead have invented a reason to talk about why they don't go to watch footy.

A lot of sense has been spoken on this thread. It begins with the overwhelming outcome of the poll (just take a look), it moves on to yngwie's robust questioning of the validity of the original question and continues with MUCH of what has been said in the last eight or so posts - of which I quote, as highlights, the above and this from yngwie...

But did you have the foresight to see that the merger would never have been approved by members if the club names were killed off?

(Sorry, I don't know how to do these multiple quote thingies.)

It is absolutely correct to say that the merger would have suffered instant death had the original club names disappeared. Those who were present at the First Battle of Rose Street (for the benefit of the younger generation this was one of three highly contentious Caley merger meetings at the Rose Street Hall and took place on 1.12.93.) may remember that the Caley Rebels, even before they left the hall, were adopting a fallback position of what eventually became the name.

Although there was still a further year of grief, the adoption of "Caledonian Thistle" played a major, major part in securing the agreement which eventually was made. Similarly on the Thistle side, the name gave them at least something which they felt they had held on to in what had to be an unequal merger, given the disparity between its two components. (Another feature of that is the frequency with which the club is referred to simply as "Caley" which - despite my Dalneigh roots - I regret, but this is to some extent inevitable.)

In "Against all Odds", I quote the average combined attendance at Kingsmills and Telford Street at around 600 and have seen no evidence in the intervening years to contradict that.

There were, for instance, 4800 at Saturday's St Johnstone game. Almost two decades on, it's therefore difficult to conceive of how thin Jags and Caley attendances were back in the early-mid 90s. Perhaps think "Clach - plus" (but not TOO big a "plus")

I could even be generous and concede that the "stayaways" ran to a bit more than 12th Man's 5% estimate, but even then they are still a drop in the ocean compared with even the modest attendances of the day - never mind current attendance levels. And that's before you start questioning how many of these guys who keep materialising in pubs to tell you how much they are missed were frequent visitors to games in any case.

Buenos Hornell.... are you still out there? :biggrin:

Here's another way of looking at it. At none of the Battles of Rose Street did the Rebels - despite scouring the highways and byways just as thoroughly as the Establishment did - ever muster more than about 250 votes against the merger. We also know quite well that a great number of them subsequently came on board and have been supporting the club for years.

So how many refuseniks does that leave?

And 16 years on, how many of even these are still in Inverness, still alive and still refusing to go to games?

You can also ask the same question of the Thistle fans where the numbers of dissidents were even smaller both in percentage and absolute terms.

The crucial, central feature of the 1994 merger was the inequality of its two components and a solution had to be found which reflected that, whilst still convincing the Caley and Thistle support that it was neither respectively selling them short nor constituting a takeover.

That was eventually achieved - by the skin of the club's teeth - and an integral part of that was the club name which then had the "Inverness" extension added in 1995 partly at the Council's request to reflect the Stadium land deal.

"Inverness Caledonian Thistle" therefore not only reflects 125 years of football history in this city but also the fact that so many odds were overcome to put together a club which, within a decade of its formation, brought SPL status and a great deal more to this city.

I make the final statement of this post with a degree of mixed feelings since I am reluctant even to dignify the original question with an answer but.... if it ain't broke - don't suggest trying to fix it.

Edited October 18, 2010 by Charles Bannerman

[caley100]

I was just going to say all that.... basically the rebels are in a complete minority and getting less, there is a whole new generation of fans going to games who never saw Caley or Thistle and probably dont give a monkee's :******:

[BornCaley]

Initially i disliked our name when the merger was finalised. Both clubs wanting to keep their name within the new clubs name was wrong IMO and i felt a new original name was the way forward. However 16+ years later im used to it now and happy with it, so a change now wouldn't do any good.

We are known the world over as ICT, Caley Thisle, Inverness Caledonian Thisle so keep it as is.

[starchief]

It's a great name and I've met people who have ICT as their Scottish team purely due to the name (QoS is also a favourite).

I don't think the rebels would go to a club that killed completely their old one either. This way, both clubs get to live on a little, yet the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

What should our name be? I'll let him have the last word:

[crownjaggie]

Dougal, If our gates are put in percentage terms then between 5 and 7 percent of the population attend each home game. Disregarding the number of away fans and the simple fact that a fair number come from across the Highlands. As a comparison the Old Filth support comes from right across Scotland (harming local attendances weekly) but equates to between 1 and 2 percent.

As for another name change. Maybe in 40 years time when all the old Highland league stalwart fans have died off and the ground is full every week, and nobody can remember why the name was concocted in the first place.

Personally I haven't been to many games home or away over the last 2 years, but that is mainly due to working 4,000 miles away from home, which gets a bit expensive on a weekly basis.

[Charles Bannerman]

basically the rebels are in a complete minority and getting less, there is a whole new generation of fans going to games who never saw Caley or Thistle and probably dont give a monkee's

I have now had a chance to check that figure and the biggest number of Caley fans who ever voted against the merger was 226 at that first Rose Street meeting. In the case of Thistle (where arrangements were a bit different with a smaller membership scheme) it was 16.

You also have to remember that the Howden End and a lot further afield was scoured again and again in the six week run up to the first Rose Street meeting so absolutely everybody with any significant anti merger sentiment was pulled in to make that 226.

Of these, a very large proportion (including a number of prominent figures) put their reservations aside and came along to games from the start, even becoming involved in the likes of the Management Committee.

Others relented at a fairly early stage.

Of those who didn't, a number over the last 16 years will either have died or won't be in a position to go to games by having left the area.

That doesn't leave many refuseniks around Inverness to be spreading the myth, but it still resurfaces - mainly on threads like this.

Maybe I should copy some of this somewhere and simply paste it on to future threads which are bound to resurface every so often peddling this complete fantasy.

The Rebels were actually quite good at propaganda which made them look a more substantial entity than they really were.

Perhaps the funniest example was right at the start in the summer of 1993 when The Courier ran a readers' poll on whether a merger should take place or not. Incredibly, the good people of Inverness, many of whom had no great interest in football, overwhelmingly rejected the notion to the tune of a resounding 83%. Unsurprisingly, the result was recorded by the paper in a very inconspicuous corner.

The best light I can shed on this amazing statistic does little more than explore the "means, motive, opportunity" dimension since it was suggested to me that at this time one B. "Chicky Allan" Hornell might just have been employed by John Menzies, newspaper distributors!

Edited October 18, 2010 by Charles Bannerman

[CaleyD]

One of the few things where we share very little difference in opinion, Mr Bannerman.

[Georgeios]

Can someone summaries this Haha, I was an old school Caley fan, moved on... I like the name n looking at this weeks attendance we were not the lowest so why change the name, I like the name n luv it when its shortened to Caley....... em jags or ICT if it was to be changed it would only be to add.... the mighty at the start.

Edited October 18, 2010 by Georgeios

[DALNEIGHCALEY]

Excuse my ignorance but who is B. Hornell ?

[Charles Bannerman]

Excuse my ignorance but who is B. Hornell ?

Buenos of That Ilk. A "prominent" Caley Rebel who posted on here for some time under that name. A "life long" Caley fan who, when taken to task for throwing the Chic Allan Trophy into the river, was alleged to have asked "So who was Chic Allan anyway?"

[cletus]

Whats wrong with our name?

The words "Inverness" & "Thistle" have always seemed superfluous.

[CaleyHE]

Excuse my ignorance but who is B. Hornell ?

Buenos of That Ilk. A "prominent" Caley Rebel who posted on here for some time under that name. A "life long" Caley fan who, when taken to task for throwing the Chic Allan Trophy into the river, was alleged to have asked "So who was Chic Allan anyway?"

I've spoken to him, and he is actually laughing at you, as he knows he's got under your skin. As c'mon Charles, you do seen like a tad pathetic on this. You have mentioned him what 3 or is it 4 times in this thread?..

Let's face it, the merger ended up a bit of a money spinner for you with AAO..

i do believe it is you who needs to move on now.

[caley100]

Whats wrong with our name?

The words "Inverness" & "Thistle" have always seemed superfluous.

Welcome back B Hornell !

To be honest Charlie only responds to threads of this nature, never starts them... but he does get up on the box when given the opperchancity, as most journo's do!!

[Charles Bannerman]

Let's face it, the merger ended up a bit of a money spinner for you with AAO..

Yup, AAO sure was a bit of a moneyspinner. The best estimate is that it made a profit of £10 - 15,000 for the club. And just to confirm what I got out of it - the opportunity to give an account of an important part of the history of Inverness and a very nice engraved Caithness Glass bowl which wasn't even part of the deal but which they were good enough to present me with to mark publication.

As for old Buenos, it's maybe quite good to give him the odd cameo appearance from time to time - just to remind us all of the considerable progress which football has made in Inverness over these years!

Edited October 21, 2010 by Charles Bannerman

[DALNEIGHCALEY]

You've never forgiven him for "pengate"

[Alex MacLeod]

Inverness Caledonian Thistle

Personally I dont see much wrong with it. It retains the history of the two teams. If its the length thats the problem then why not revert to the original name and drop the Inverness

Inverness United

Would hardly be a united club considering the divisions from the merger and the further divisions created by taking over other teams.

Inverness Fc

This I think is what the club should have been called from the first.

Inverness City

This team already exists and is registered with SFA

Highland Fc

This is the worst of all the choices. We already get supporters who travel from all corners of the highlands and from some of the islands. We also have many football teams in the highlands, including Ross County, so would you expect all their fans to turn to us because of a name.

There is a lot of dedate about what constitutes Inverness when it comes to counting the population. Should the villages of Culloden, Ardersier, North Kessock, Lochend etc be counted as part of the city? Lets assume the population we are talking about is 60,000. This season so far our home gate average for league matches is 5,388 according to Scotprem I would think that was pretty much on a par with other clubs as far as %ages go. We are in an era where gate numbers are down at all clubs. Many people cannot afford the game any more. Ask people why they dont go and they'll cite price, they'll also cite performance, player wages, lack of opportunity for success and many other reasons.. Address all those problems and numbers will rise.

This game we all love is no longer the saturday afternoon release from the pressures of scrimping and scraping during the week. It has lost its appeal for many people.

[Morgan Spice]

The name we have now is perfectly fine. It's 2010 nearly 2011 and if older people want a name change thats fine but it's the younger generation thats coming through now and in the near future. To me Caledonian F.C. and Thistle F.C. each have their own history but ICT are who I've grown up supporting and I'd be very surprised if anybody my age wanted a name change. I'm 24 now but looking around Inverness these days there are far more people wearing ICT tops in town and at school than when I was there. This will continue to grow it just needs patience.

[Guest Mahonio]

Let's face it, the merger ended up a bit of a money spinner for you with AAO..

Yup, AAO sure was a bit of a moneyspinner. The best estimate is that it made a profit of ?10 - 15,000 for the club. And just to confirm what I got out of it - the opportunity to give an account of an important part of the history of Inverness and a very nice engraved Caithness Glass bowl which wasn't even part of the deal but which they were good enough to present me with to mark publication.

As for old Buenos, it's maybe quite good to give him the odd cameo appearance from time to time - just to remind us all of the considerable progress which football has made in Inverness over these years!

I would cherish that if i was you Charlie, Caithness Glass has closed down now, i bet you already knew that lad.

[CaleyHE]

You've never forgiven him for "pengate"

Took me a while, oops there it goes..

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

IHE would say that it should be Caledonian FC and rename the North Stand to the Howden End and Johndo dreams about that as well.

As many know I was an original "Animal" and probably classed as a "rebel" and I stayed away fer three seasons.

But hey - the first time I came back it was just simply Inverness - and the Jeggies were always our mates with friendly banter and we all hated County and Hellgin. So maybe I am a rebel without a cause.

And most of ma new mates are ex Jeggies and I would say that I was primarily responsible for chanting the O2B song and turning it away from being a Jail End taunt.

INVERNESS CALEDONIAN THISTLE FC - It took a lot of feckin emotion, effort and struggle to create it and long may it remain - to me it is a constant reminder of the past and is part and parcel of our colourful history (as covered in literature by yon wee BBC **** )

I actually pride in saying that name now. As long as some dyslexic ******* doesnt rename it ITC - now that would be feckin sacriledge.

[bauhaus]

Just for the record, the clubs official limited name is Inverness Thistle and Caledonian Football Club Limited, T/A Inverness Caledonian Thistle FC.

We dont need to change the name at all

[Caley]

Excuse my ignorance but who is B. Hornell ?

Buenos of That Ilk. A "prominent" Caley Rebel who posted on here for some time under that name. A "life long" Caley fan who, when taken to task for throwing the Chic Allan Trophy into the river, was alleged to have asked "So who was Chic Allan anyway?"

You have to give him some credit for LSM though, Charles. Some of that was brilliant.

A flawed genius?

[caleymore]

Think you'd be nuts to change the name. I don't live or work in Inverness and have no ties with the town but that dosn't stop me supporting ITC. Inverness is known throughout the world, cant think of any words more assosiated with Scotland than Caledonian and Thistle., and when we get into Europe they will all know we "Dont give a f**k"

[PullMyFinger]

We should look for a practical solution first e.g. reduce the prices by five pounds a ticket and ensure that the product on the park is of a continually high standard and encourage the team to attack first and formost.

I agree with most of what you say Scarlet but I would restrict any price cuts to children, oh wait a minute....they did that already

Why pay good money to be bored?

It's the nature of the beast.

The name we have now is perfectly fine. It's 2010 nearly 2011 and if older people want a name change thats fine but it's the younger generation thats coming through now and in the near future. To me Caledonian F.C. and Thistle F.C. each have their own history but ICT are who I've grown up supporting and I'd be very surprised if anybody my age wanted a name change. I'm 24 now but looking around Inverness these days there are far more people wearing ICT tops in town and at school than when I was there. This will continue to grow it just needs patience.

That's an excellent positive post.

I would cherish that if i was you Charlie, Caithness Glass has closed down now, i bet you already knew that lad.

They still have a studio/visitor centre in Creiff where they make paperweights.

My tuppenceworth, it's the name of the club I support. I would object to any name change on the grounds that Johndo's tattoo would need to be lasered and redone before being paraded again for all to see. Do we really have to go there?