Fans take 12% slice in Caley Thistle

[DJS]

The following press release has been issued jointly by the football club and supporters trust.  It's taken a while but we've got there in the end.  :003:

Inverness Caledonian Thistle have given their Supporters Trust the biggest slice of shareholding in SPL history.

Caley Thistle's Supporters Trust now own 12 per cent of club shares -- with Dundee United next in the SPL with 5.6 per cent followed by Hearts (3.5%) and Falkirk (3%).

The football club board has approved the transfer to the Trust of the shareholding from the Members Club, which now dissolves. The Members Club was a legacy of the 1994 merger between Highland League sides Caledonian and Inverness Thistle which allowed the new team to be born.

Caley Thistle chairman Alan Savage said:"The directors are very happy to agree the transfer to allow supporters of this club a significant stake, which makes the Trust one of our larger shareholders.

"The Members Club has passed into history and we applaud their recognition that it was time to move on. It makes sense that the shares go to those who actively support Caley Thistle now. Many of these fans were not associated with the former Highland League clubs.

"We're very pleased that our supporters now have more influence than those at any other SPL club. The Trust has shown a very positive and sensible approach and we look forward to closer links."

Supporters Trust chairman Les Kidger said:"It's another major milestone in the Caley Thistle story and our members are delighted to have such a strong voice at the table.

"We hope this feeling of ownership will help widen the club's fan base.We intend to work very closely with the board, which is clearly heading in the right direction.

"We're grateful to former Caley Thistle chairman David Sutherland, who encouraged us a couple of years ago when we first sought to untangle the legal and prcedural situation with the Members Club. And incoming chairman Alan Savage has shown equally strong support and enabled us to deliver what is good news for club and fans alike."

The Trust's shareholding will dilute to 10 per cent if the club's available for sale shares attract new investment. But Mr Kidger said:"It is the principle that matters more than the amount. We would still be the most democratic club in the SPL."

[Harry Chibber]

:025: :025: :025:

Well done all :003:

[CaleyD]

Until such time as the barrier of a joining fee is removed from the Trust and all fans are members purely by virtue of them being a supporter then in my mind the 12% holding is not "The Fans Slice" by any shape of the imagination and falls under the control of a minority group, much in the same way as it did when it was owned by the Members Club.

The ICT Supporters Trust has the power to remove the joining fee and include everyone but they choose not to, instead people are expected to pay to prove they are a fan and have a say in how the Trust runs.

Transfer of these shares to the Trust is a positive move, and I ask that the Trust reconsider it's membership criteria to bring all fans into the fold regardless of their willingness or ability to pay a £10 joining fee.

Let see if the response I get to this time round is being told to shutup and the board being asked to refund my membership and send me home as happened at the last meeting I attended and proposed the abolishment of the membership fee and open meetings for all fans!!!

[clacher_holiday2]

token gestures like this share transfer is about all i could stomach to be honest and im glad we (ict) arent going any further.  the supporters trust, members club or any other fans group are exactly the type of people i wouldnt trust to run a football club, especially the supporters trust as it stands today as theres far too many disruptve personalities behind the scenes.  anybody with enough free time (ok thats horribly unfair to most of the members and i expect to be taken up on this!) to spend getting involved with this kind of movement clearly has some psychological damage somewhere, i imagine them all to be a bit compulsive or insecure in the real world and id just rather they didnt use ict as part of the healing process.  but hey who am i to say, everybody needs something in their lives to belong to, right?  i just hope the board see straight through them and they concentrate on their own agenda, which at this stage looks like 'lets make as much money and be as successful as we can', magic.

and caley d, that last part of your message made me laugh quite loudly  :022:

[maimie]

token gestures like this share transfer is about all i could stomach to be honest and im glad we (ict) arent going any further.  the supporters trust, members club or any other fans group are exactly the type of people i wouldnt trust to run a football club, especially the supporters trust as it stands today as theres far too many disruptve personalities behind the scenes.  anybody with enough free time (ok thats horribly unfair to most of the members and i expect to be taken up on this!) to spend getting involved with this kind of movement clearly has some psychological damage somewhere, i imagine them all to be a bit compulsive or insecure in the real world and id just rather they didnt use ict as part of the healing process.  but hey who am i to say, everybody needs something in their lives to belong to, right?  i just hope the board see straight through them and they concentrate on their own agenda, which at this stage looks like 'lets make as much money and be as successful as we can', magic.

and caley d, that last part of your message made me laugh quite loudly  :022:

Clacher - I think some of your comments in here are a wee bit unfair given that some of the folk working with the Supporters Club and the Trust have been very supportive of you in the past in many ways.

and I'm not quite sure what you mean by disruptive personalities behind the scenes in the Trust...

[Heilandee]

Well done to the ICT supporters trust and all who sail in her, despite the negativity and doubts of some. As one of our own more prominent trust members continually points out, "You dont need your umbrella till it starts raining"

[DJS]

I will give a more measured response later in the day but in the meantime I must head off to my shrink who is helping me sort out the damage.  :017: :016:

[Scotty]

Clacher, I think you are totally wrong and I want to take issue with a few of your comments.

the supporters trust, members club or any other fans group are exactly the type of people i wouldnt trust to run a football club, especially the supporters trust as it stands today as theres far too many disruptve personalities behind the scenes.

Whilst it is true that in any organisation you might get people becoming a part of it to try and further their own agenda, or to gain recognition, notoriety or some form of gratuities or freebies I think you are tarring everyone with a pretty nasty brush here. There are people who just like to get involved, or who want to try and help others without the need for an alternative agenda. I dont know everyone involved in the trust but would certainly vouch for that being the case with many of them that I do know. 

anybody with enough free time to spend getting involved with this kind of movement clearly has some psychological damage somewhere, i imagine them all to be a bit compulsive or insecure in the real world and id just rather they didnt use ict as part of the healing process

What absolute scheidt. Some people just like to get involved in things. When I was in Inverness I spent time on the committees of various organisations - ICT Supporters Club, Inverness & District Pool Association, Inverness & District Amateur Football Association. Did i join any of them because i was insecure, or psychologically deficient in some way ? NO, I joined them because I am bloody good at organising things and I like to be involved. I get enjoyment in seeing an event take shape and then watching it run like clockwork. do I need to be in the foreground basking in the limelight ? NO, most of the time I am happy (or actually prefer) to sit quite happily in the background helping things tick over. Am I insecure ? NO - I may have had moments of insecurity at times, but most of the time I am quite comfortable with where I am, where I have been and where I am going.

I assume that I must also be even more psychologically unhinged because I started a website in 1994 and have maintained it ever since ?

Did I do that for recognition or financial gain ? NO, I did it because I wanted to learn web design and ICT was one of the first subjects that popped into my head when i pondered "ok, what will i make it about" .... It has actually cost me way more money than it has ever made but money has never been my motivation. YES, I have had the odd freebie or invite to hospitality but I think I have given back more than I have ever received. Unfortunately, I am not in a financial position to show my support for the club in the same way as someone like David Sutherland can do, so supplying the club with a website made me feel happy that I was contributing to the club in some way especially when the club quite simply couldnt afford to pay someone to do it. Do I like the praise I get (at times) ? YES, of course I do, I wouldnt be human if I didnt, but the search for plaudits was not the reason the site was started (and with the praise also comes criticism in equal measure).

The site is actually more important than ever for me now since we moved to being unofficial again and from 3500 miles away it is not likely I will get too much in the way of freebies or a chance to develop a hidden agenda. Instead, it keeps me informed about what is happening in both Inverness and at ICT and it also keeps me in touch with many friends I have made over the years. Finally, from the point of view of why it was started in the first place - to learn web design - the new site has taught me loads of new stuff about all sorts of different and developing web technologies.

i just hope the board see straight through them and they concentrate on their own agenda, which at this stage looks like 'lets make as much money and be as successful as we can', magic

If the Directors' agenda for the club is to "make as much money and be as successful as we can" then I fully support that but I disagree with you that everyone who tries to volunteer or become involved in some way - whether as part of an organised group or as an individual - has a hidden agenda. There have been people who have offered genuine help but have been knocked back time and again because their face doesnt fit and there have also been (and still are) some who do have an agenda (hidden or otherwise) attached to their involvement with the club. People dont have to be part of any organisation to either have, or not have, an agenda and again you are tarring everyone with the same brush which is unfair.

[Mrs Pauliebee]

PB's are certainly involved, and will definitely be at the next meeting.

I can't deny that there may be "psychological damage somewhere" with us both :023:, but we certainly aren't doing this to pass the time.  We care about this club and how it's run.  Yes, there are things that annoy me, but we're not going to change them sitting on our erses are we!

It's too easy to spit your dummy out and throw a tantrum about the people that are getting off their's!  It's the cowards way out of having to do anything!

Try doing something positive for a change Clacher - you might enjoy it!

[DJS]

Don, I fully understand the view you hold about membership fees.  However, what was very clear at the meeting you mention was that all who attended the meeting shared the board's view that there should be a membership fee.  You were very much on your own regarding scrapping the membership fee.

Being part of the trust does me the power of good.

When we organise a bowling night for families to play with the players and you see the look on the kids faces as they bowl with Dods, Dargo & Morgan you can't help but get a buzz out of that.

When we hold our boxing night next week, which is a sell out, and then pass on a cheque for several thousand pounds to ICT Youth & Development I'll feel good about that.

I could go on but haven't the time.  However, the 12% shareholding is remarkable in Scottish football and having spoken to the club chairman he has made encouraging noises about the Trust adding to that in the months and years to come.    The trust board also must expand in size and we are talking to a small number of well known ICT fans who we would like to co-opt onto our board whose skills and enthusiasm would make us stronger.

The future's bright and definitely not orange.

[Charles Bannerman]

The Trust, and what under the circumstances is a large but very fair 12% stake in Caley Thistle, is the up side of the Merger, now come home to roost in a comfortable environment more than a decade on from those difficult days.

One of the key components of the eventual merger settlement was the creation of a Unified Members' Club which was designed to perpetuate within the new club the interests of the original merger partners. I for one was quite surprised at the time that junior partners Thistle agreed to this but in the end their much feared consumption by the much larger Caley faction never even emerged as an issue. The Suporters' Trust is now the natural successor of the original Members' Club.

To start with the Members' Club had control of around half Caley Thistle's equity. This was only fair, given the proportion of the club's initial value which Thistle and Caley contributed. (Gross - Caley £1M for Telford Street (1996) plus an ongoing Social Club, Thistle £486,000 for Kingsmills (1995) plus the sale value of their Baron Taylor's St premises. Nett - after expenses and especially LEGAL FEES!, possibly something over 1M combined total.)

As other sources of equity came in, such as Ian Fraser, the 1996 share issue and Tullochs, the Members' Club's share was progressively reduced by resolution of various General Meetings until it reached its current level of 12%. It could also be mentioned as an aside that it was Dougie McGilvray who, as Chairman, began this dilution process in the late 90s although he later disagreed with its continuation under David Sutherland.

I think the central point here is that the very thing that created the greatest impediment to the merger - the fact that Thistle and Caley were owned by their Members, necessitating a series of large scale votes, and not by shareholders or directors -  has now become the basis of this very generous shareholding held by the Supporters' Trust.

In other words, Jags and Caley belonged to their members. These assets were eventually (!) converted into shares in ICT, stewardship of which was vested in the Members' Club, and, after appropriate dilution to 12%, that stewardship has now been rightly transferred to the Supporters' Trust.

I cannot agree with Caley D's objection to a membership fee. After all it's less than half the cost of admission to a single football match and the Trust will have administrative expenses.

In conclusion, I would add that I simply can't identify any of the devils which Clacher seems to imagine are lurking within but, in view of Scotty's excellent critique of Clacher's post, I need say no more on that issue.

[caleyboy]

 ............. However, the 12% shareholding is remarkable in Scottish football and having spoken to the club chairman he has made encouraging noises about the Trust adding to that in the months and years to come.   

Although I fully support the transfer of voting rights from the Members Club to the Supporters Trust  :021: it must be remembered that the other Supporters Trusts in Scotland were not handed any gifts, they raised the money to BUY their rights - hence the only reason that this stake is "remarkable"! Now that the so called "old boys club" (many good people on that membership) has been basically removed from the scene, I only hope that the Supporters Trust is not made up of YES men and their vote is used solely for the benefit of the Football Club.

[clacher_holiday2]

Clacher - I think some of your comments in here are a wee bit unfair given that some of the folk working with the Supporters Club and the Trust have been very supportive of you in the past in many ways.

im not sure what im supposed to make of that.  from memory ive only ever had one problem i couldnt deal with myself once and the supporters club were no help at all!

as for everybody else i stand by what i said before, ive no problem with the trust or it taking shares in concept but i dont think the right people are behind the scenes.  12% might be impressive in respect to the rest of scottish football but in reality its buttons youll be putting into the club compared to what the alan savages or david sutherlands of inverness can.  i dont say that because they are personally rich but because they have the attitude and intellect to find income streams that may not have previously existed or strengthen those that do, for the benefit of ict as a whole whereas the supporters trust have yet to demonstrate that ability.  had the trust raised the money to actually earn the 12% my attitude might be different and a **** of alot more supportive but you didnt, this was a gift and the last thing you should be doing is patting yourselves on the back for it.  you should feel under pressure to show youre grateful and really put yourselves on the map by raising big money... because at the end of the day thats what alot of you guys want isnt it?  no problems with me there, just prove youre worth it!

ive been invited casually on here by les kidger (the trust is in very safe and capable hands there by the way!) to attend meetings in the past (as have others) but ive never been, i honestly dont feel as if i have anything to add to the trust just now.  in an ideal world i wouldnt have anybody involved who wasnt there to raise money or improve the club in some way, i dont think anybody should have even the smallest possible stake in the club purely for being a supporter.

ps. besides all that, i intend to buy ict when we next get relegated and cut the supporters trusts stake to about 1.2%, so enjoy it while it lasts.

[EWS]

How do you join the Supporters Trust?

[Scotty]

info here : http://www.ictsupporterstrust.co.uk/

[CaleyD]

Don, I fully understand the view you hold about membership fees.  However, what was very clear at the meeting you mention was that all who attended the meeting shared the board's view that there should be a membership fee.  You were very much on your own regarding scrapping the membership fee.

With all due respect David, that is BS.  I raised the issue, it was shot down from the floor by yourself and Les based things like "Other Trust work like ours currently does" and meetings/fans forums could not be open events because of logistics.

It was also stated that the Trust had to offer "Member only perks", and when I countered that this was not the aims of the Trust and that it's constitution charged it with working for the community.  I got no answer to this and things were quickly shifted along.

I offered solutions/counter arguments and when Les was forced to agree and could offer no argument it was opened to the floor for their comments and only one person made any comment - which was basically that they wanted something exclusive in return for their membership fee.

It was then brought up that Dee4Life had one of themost successful Trust in the country and when I pointed out that this was in part due to the fact that they had a Trust which charged nothing for membership the conversation was then re-directed on to arguments about "dead members andmembers who did nothing" etc.

At this point I was verbally attacked from the floor, asked if I grudged paying my £10 and was told that I should "put something in to the club".  The same person then suggested that I be given my £10 back and sent packing.  The meeting was then swiftly brought to an end without the matter being resolved and without my being allowed to counter the accusations laid against me.  Here I was arguing that we should not be looking for any kind of exclusivity as members and someone who had just said they were looking for this was accusing me of grudging my £10.

So please David, don't insult my intelligence by coming out with comments that I was alone in my thinking.  I know for a fact that their are members of the Trust Board and in general who agree with my points, but they prefer to play some kind of game of politics surrounding the whole thing.  For me, I can be bothered with the politics, all that will do is get in the way of what should be getting done so I call it as I see it.

As I have said in the past, I will continue with my stance until such time as the Trust is of a sufficient size and structure to allow it to 'hand on heart' stand up and say it is representative of the fans.  If at that time the majority disagree with my views then I will accept that, but until then I will continue to do what I can to fight for a Supporters Trust that is free, open to everyone and is fulfilling the charges as laid out in it's constitution.

[Charles Bannerman]

Caleyboy...  this is not a gift. The 12% which the Supporters' Trust now has represents the £1 million plus of assets which Thistle and Caley put into the original merger. These assets literally belonged to the supporters (in the form of season ticket holders) of these original clubs and their resulting voting power is now vested in the supporters of ICT, many of whom are the same people.

In the intervening years these shares had to be diverted for safety to the Members' Club. I could actually make quite a strong case that this happened because at the time, too many of the Thistle and Caley "Supporters" could not be "Trusted" to direct these assets in the best interests of the new club. So in more ways than one, the term Supporters' Trust is extremely appropriate!

[DJS]

Don, clearly our views and recollections on these matters are poles apart and discussing them any further on this forum would serve no purpose in my view, so this will be my last contribution to it.  Perhaps, a blether over a pint some time might be more appropriate.

Clacher - while the Trust is delighted to obtain these shares I don't think we are patting ourselves on the back.  It is pleasing to see this thing brought to a conclusion but nobody should think they simply came gift wrapped from the club.  Les, in particular, has put in a heap of work involving many meetings, innumerable phone calls and several lawyers.

So, getting back to the initial purpose of this thread

AN ICT SUPPORTERS' ORGANISATION THAT ANY ICT FAN CAN JOIN NOW HAS A SIGNIFICANT SHAREHOLDING IN THE CLUB.  IF YOU FEEL THAT'S A PRETTY GOOD THING AND LIKE SOME OF THE OTHER THINGS WE ARE DOING COME AND JOIN US.

http://www.ictsupporterstrust.co.uk

Over and Out