Refuseniks

[caley100]

Cant belive Dougal has worked his little sh1t stick and got all these posts as we grind out all thats been through the site on numerous occasions, all in the premise of 'making my mind up ' thats meant to be the ****** smiley...

Edited March 13, 2011 by caley100

[Renegade]

I think what some people have to remember, is that the idea of a merger is nothing new. IIRC it is believed that there was a time when a merger was very close in the 30s between Caley, Thistle and Clach (and possibly Citadel). In fact I think I might be right in saying that Caley and Thistle themselves were also mergers from previous and now somewhat forgotten clubs (Inverness Rovers, Inverness Celtic, Crown FC etc.). Also, an Inverness XI also played a number of friendlies against bigger opposition over the years.

And it's not just here. Elgin City were formed from the merger of Vale of Lossie and Elgin Rovers. Aberdeen were formed from three clubs - an older, different club also called Aberdeen FC, Victoria United and Orion. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples too where clubs have merged and benefited from it in the long run.

[The Long Man]

How will a straw poll, with guesses for answers, and a handful of replies, 'settle' anything? Just wondering....

BTW I believe it was 'settled' about 15 years ago

Edited March 13, 2011 by The Long Man

[BornCaley]

Inverness was that close to having a mediocre SFL team bumping away indefinitely in the region of the Second Division - something like Alloa I suspect.

I really doubt that. All the new fans who supported the merged team would have probably supported any league team in Inverness. So I think the crowds would be similar to what they are now.

I agree Joe.....FACT....in the 50s and 60s, Caley were regularily playing to crowds as big...if not bigger than what they average now, when they were in the Highland League. Dont belive me....go get yourself a copy of Rod Clynes book, In A Different League....its all in there.

I see no evidence to suggest that Caley on their own would have been less of a draw than ICT....if anything...i think they could have had a bigger, more loyal fanbase!

SMEE is right. According to Alex Main's "Caley All the Way, Caledonian had some quite large crowds during the 1950's and 60's:

Caledonian v Clach - 1949/50 NOS Qualifying Cup- Attendance 6,000 ( T Street)

Caledonian v Elgin - 1950/51 NOS Qualifying Cup - Attendance 4,000 ( T Street)

Caledonian v County -1965/66- NOS Qualifying Cup - Attendance 4,000 ( T Street)

Not sure what this proves other than Caledonian were able to get 1st division attendances.

[The Long Man]

Perhaps you should take a look at what crowds other football clubs of that era were able to attract. Then extrapolate their decline to the mythical what Caley would attract now. It is a futile and meaningless argument. The point is that Caley on their own, like Thistle, didn't have the resources or the infrastructure to make a serious assault on the Scottish Leagues. Indulge in misty-eyed romanticism by all means, but let's not pretend there's anything real or factual about it. Just a pipedream.

[The Mantis]

I prefer to hear views from both merger camps not just the one, that way I can make my own mind up

dougal

I know if my beloved Nottingham Forest merged with Notts County you wouldn't have seen me for dust

dougal

So have you made your mind up then

[The Mantis]

I firmly believe that a generation of Caledonian fans have turned their back on ICT with maybe a handful only becoming regulars, Mantis being one of that few and I salute him for that

dougal

I disagree with that. Just for the record, I was part of the 'anti' campaign along with the fanzine guys. The fanzine tended to look down on the occasional Caley fans who didn't attend every game (in fact I only came up the road about 10 times a season anyway but I was excused as it's a long trip).

Since coming to watch ICT I have met many more people who were Caley fans than I ever did before the merger. They can describe a lot of games from the past they were at, but they were obviously the kind of people labelled 'gloryhunters' by the fanzine because they didn't bother with Rothes away, etc.

Because the fanzine guys were at a certain age they were passionate about Caley and despised people who had other interests in their life. If you ask around the Innes Bar on a big match day it's heaving with guys who followed Caley, not just a handful.

[TheKnowledge]

I think what some people have to remember, is that the idea of a merger is nothing new. IIRC it is believed that there was a time when a merger was very close in the 30s between Caley, Thistle and Clach (and possibly Citadel). In fact I think I might be right in saying that Caley and Thistle themselves were also mergers from previous and now somewhat forgotten clubs (Inverness Rovers, Inverness Celtic, Crown FC etc.). Also, an Inverness XI also played a number of friendlies against bigger opposition over the years.

And it's not just here. Elgin City were formed from the merger of Vale of Lossie and Elgin Rovers. Aberdeen were formed from three clubs - an older, different club also called Aberdeen FC, Victoria United and Orion. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples too where clubs have merged and benefited from it in the long run.

I tried to hit the green guy, but hit the red. Fat fingers, too many baby bells, I'm sorry.

[dougal]

I prefer to hear views from both merger camps not just the one, that way I can make my own mind up

dougal

I know if my beloved Nottingham Forest merged with Notts County you wouldn't have seen me for dust

dougal

So have you made your mind up then

Mr Mantis the more I think about both scenarios its remarkable how similar the football communities of Nottingham and Inverness are

Forest like Caley being the greater team with the better players, more money, better ground and a much larger support

I can't help but laugh out loud at the ex jaggies that claim that they had all the money men who were allegedly regulars at Kingsmills, from what i've been told and the few online photos of Kingsmills park i've seen, then why did their ground resemble something like a scene from Beirut at the height of the troubles

Any money men would have pumped the cash into the Scottish league team regardless of who the team was

I personally think the jags were on their last legs and they only had one chance of survival and that was to cling perilously on to Caley's tail because they would have been dead and buried within a season had Caley gone solo. You only have to look at the sorry state Clach find themselves in at the moment to back up my claim

Had I been a Jaggie I reckon I would have fallen into the refusenik camp, there is no way I could watch a merged team who play in blue, hear only Caley chants from the fans and listen to virtually everybody in Inverness including the local and national media refer to the team as Caley

Had I been Caledonian I would have voted NO to a takeover and I would have wanted Caley to go alone because other than the sale of Kingsmills Thistle were bringing absolutely nothing to the party

What I find galling is that clubs who were inferior to Caledonian on and off the park got Scottish League entry(yer Ross Countys,Peterheads,Elgins,Gretnas and Annans etc)

The fact that Gretna reached the SPL and County made a Cup final apperance makes a mockery of all the clowns on here that claim Caley would never have achieved what ICT have done.

Lets not beat about the bush Caledonian FC would be in the exact same position that ICT find themselves in at this moment with a greater and more loyal fanbase as there would be a lot less disharmony in the City

dougal

[Alex MacLeod]

Inverness was that close to having a mediocre SFL team bumping away indefinitely in the region of the Second Division - something like Alloa I suspect.

I really doubt that. All the new fans who supported the merged team would have probably supported any league team in Inverness. So I think the crowds would be similar to what they are now.

I agree Joe.....FACT....in the 50s and 60s, Caley were regularily playing to crowds as big...if not bigger than what they average now, when they were in the Highland League. Dont belive me....go get yourself a copy of Rod Clynes book, In A Different League....its all in there.

I see no evidence to suggest that Caley on their own would have been less of a draw than ICT....if anything...i think they could have had a bigger, more loyal fanbase!

SMEE is right. According to Alex Main's "Caley All the Way, Caledonian had some quite large crowds during the 1950's and 60's:

Caledonian v Clach - 1949/50 NOS Qualifying Cup- Attendance 6,000 ( T Street)

Caledonian v Elgin - 1950/51 NOS Qualifying Cup - Attendance 4,000 ( T Street)

Caledonian v County -1965/66- NOS Qualifying Cup - Attendance 4,000 ( T Street)

Not sure what this proves other than Caledonian were able to get 1st division attendances.

Following on from what the Long Man suggests here's some recordl crowds from the Scottish leagues of 50's and 60's

2nd Jan 1950 Hibs v Hearts at Easter Road - Div 1 - 65860

3rd Mar 1954 Aberdeen v Hearts at Pittodrie - Scot Cup - 45060

2nd Jan 1950 East Fife v Raith Rovers at Bayview - Div 1 - 22515

14th Mar 1959 Stirling Albion v Celtic at Annfield - Scot Cup - 26400

17th Feb 1968 Elgin City v Arbroath at Boroughbrigs - Scot Cup - 12608

These are record attendances for the home clubs but such attendances would never happen nowadays. Elgin would be lucky to break a thousand for a game against Arbroath now.The last Easter Road derby couldnt raise a third of the gate of 1950. No comparrison can be made between now and back then for many reasons. Back then football was an affordable release for a man and his boys after a hard weeks work. Indeed for many it was probably the only affordable interest they could have. Now there's too many other things to spend the money on and football has priced itself out of the market.

[The Mantis]

OFF TOPIC!

Not really a contribution to the argument, just one or two examples of games from my era I was at, or at least just recall:

Ayr v Rangers, 1969 - 25500

Rangers v Celtic SCF 1973, 122000

Scotland v England, several times, 134000

Celtic v Leeds, Hampden, 1970, 134000 officially, but supposedly 150000

Rangers v Hibs league match, c1970, 73000

Hibs v Hearts, c1970, 40000

Hibs v Aberdeen, cup 4th round, c1969, 44000

Rangers v Bayern 1972, 80000 and 75000 at Celtic v Inter the same night.

Rangers v Celtic, any league match before 1971, 94000

Hearts v Rangers, midweek replay 1968, 44000

Edited March 14, 2011 by TheMantis

[+DoofersDad]

[dougal]

[Alex MacLeod]

I prefer to hear views from both merger camps not just the one, that way I can make my own mind up

dougal

I know if my beloved Nottingham Forest merged with Notts County you wouldn't have seen me for dust

dougal

So have you made your mind up then

Mr Mantis the more I think about both scenarios its remarkable how similar the football communities of Nottingham and Inverness are

Forest like Caley being the greater team with the better players, more money, better ground and a much larger support

I can't help but laugh out loud at the ex jaggies that claim that they had all the money men who were allegedly regulars at Kingsmills, from what i've been told and the few online photos of Kingsmills park i've seen, then why did their ground resemble something like a scene from Beirut at the height of the troubles

Any money men would have pumped the cash into the Scottish league team regardless of who the team was

I personally think the jags were on their last legs and they only had one chance of survival and that was to cling perilously on to Caley's tail because they would have been dead and buried within a season had Caley gone solo. You only have to look at the sorry state Clach find themselves in at the moment to back up my claim

Had I been a Jaggie I reckon I would have fallen into the refusenik camp, there is no way I could watch a merged team who play in blue, hear only Caley chants from the fans and listen to virtually everybody in Inverness including the local and national media refer to the team as Caley. Lucky for us you weren't here then

Had I been Caledonian I would have voted NO to a takeover and I would have wanted Caley to go alone because other than the sale of Kingsmills Thistle were bringing absolutely nothing to the party. Who invested the most in this new club?

What I find galling is that clubs who were inferior to Caledonian on and off the park got Scottish League entry(yer Ross Countys,Peterheads,Elgins,Gretnas and Annans etc) Whats galling about that

The fact that Gretna reached the SPL and County made a Cup final apperance makes a mockery of all the clowns on here that claim Caley would never have achieved what ICT have done. Gretna made a mockery of Scottish Football

Lets not beat about the bush Caledonian FC would be in the exact same position that ICT find themselves in at this moment with a greater and more loyal fanbase as there would be a lot less disharmony in the City. Nobody will ever know the answer to that but I doubt it.

dougal

Dougal, Caledonian FC were the largest and most successful Highland League club but I still hold that, had they gone it alone, they'd be in the same leagues as the Elgins, Peterheads etc you mention. Gretna doesnt count because that was one mans obsession to prove he could buy a non league football team and take them to the top league within five years. He done it, he spent his fortunes doing it and his team died with him.

You say Thistle took nothing to the party. I say Thistle took David Sutherland and his money to the party. Without that and his business accumen we would still be playing Elgin and Montrose.

What I find very galling about you Dougal is your persistance in trying to stir the chit at every opportunity. If your intention is to try and breed unrest among ICT fans then you'd better go back to the drawing board. We are here on this site for this club that is ICT. We have accepted the events of 18 years ago and we all stand together now, in the same stand, to support the same team. We dont dig up the past, other than in nostalgic reflection. We look to the future and the success of ICT.

[Charles Bannerman]

To revive an old saying on these forums (or I should really say "fora"!) "I agree with Mantis!"

You've got it straight from the horse's mouth there.... from one of the many "NO" voters who followed and supported ICT after the deal was done and the club formed. And he is telling you that a large number of the 226 who voted against the merger in December 1993 have become supporters. But of course there's always the anecdotal stuff when someone claims to know someone who is a refusenik.... therefore Inverness is full of refuseniks. In about 2086 (and I choose the date deliberately) we will, with echoes of the Battle of the Somme, be hearing that the last living Caley Refusenik is still in a nursing home on Telford Street, bumping his gums away on a Howden End pie from the stock he took away and froze in October 1996.

I really have to commend Dougal who does an incredible job on here getting debate going.... even though it's usually about outdated or irrelevant p!sh. He seems to have a talent for identifying issues which get people posting on here... just look at the length of this thread for instance!

He even shows quite a good understanding of some of these issues, including this one, and his last post does state some sense... but also a lot of nonsense although I'm now sufficiently punchdrunk with this subject no longer to be bothered replying line by line.

However I would want to give this summary of the contribution of Thistle....

The Inverness merger was essentially an unequal one and finding the right balance of inequality is what created a lot of the problems. At one point it was (correctly) stated that Caley had 70% of the assets, 80% of the membership (albeit only after rabid recruiting in advance of the meetings) and 90% of the fundraising capacity. Thistle on the other hand did contribute £486,000 from the sale of Kingsmills and the proceeds of the sale of their Social Club. Believe me - half a million quid in the desperately tight financial arithmetic of the construction of the stadium was absolutely vital. However the presence of BOTH clubs in the arrangement, even after the departure of Clach, gave it the status of representing the whole of Inverness and not just one of the town's three Highland League clubs. This was a very important "added value" which meant that the joint bid had FAR more clout than any single one could have had and as a result FAR more support was forthcoming from the public purse (£1.8M) and local businesses. It also brought neutrals in because - like it or not - there was always a significant dislike of "the Caley" within Inverness. In consequence, the merged bid which went in front of the SFL in January 1994 was far, far more potent than anything a single team could have raised.

The option of any single club bid effectively died on September 9th 1993 when both clubs voted to merge. Although applications did not close until 1st October, no single bid could physically have been put together after that. So it was the merger or nothing.

The bottom line is that few people in 1993 would have envisaged Inverness having SPL football by 2004, far less retaining it more or less unbroken for many years.

Nor would it have ever had SPL football if Caley had decided to go it alone - which they so nearly did and I believe would have done if the Carse Scheme had gone ahead in 1992.

So, ironcially, although the ditherers on the District Council nearly caused disaster at one point, their dithering over the Carse was a major factor in ensuring that Inverness is in the SPL and not just another Alloa, Brechin or Peterhead.

EDIT - while I was posting this, Alex was talking a lot of sense in the post now immediately above. In particular, if creating dissent is Dougal's aim, then there is NO chance of him doing that with any of the topics he starts. This one, for instance, is as Alex says merely of nostalgic and in my own case academic interest.

Edited March 14, 2011 by Charles Bannerman

[dougiedanger]

Maybe the real issue is less about numbers than the kind of supporter the typical refusenik is/was. As Mantis says, these were generally younger, fanatical, working class types and not at all like the sweetie rustling, tartan rug brigade that ICT seem to attract for whatever reason.

[Ivy League]

For what it is worth... I was 17 when the 2 clubs merged... used to live near Jags park, so went to most of their home games... my dad was also a Highland League linesman, so managed to get to a few away games too...

I supported the team from the merger but didnt go to many of the games as I could not bring myself to chant for C*ley... I have been a season ticket holder for 6 or 7 seasons now and I am only just beginning to be able to chant the aforementioned word...

[TheKnowledge]

[/quote name='dougal' timestamp='1300137007' post='302355']

[Caley Mad In Berks]

As one of the oldest posters on here I thought I'd throw my tuppence worth into the 'refusenik' debate. The many of you who don't remember 'old money' won't know what tuppence is, but no matter ...

I started watching Caley in 1949, aged about 7. My first match was actually at the Clach park. Caley won 2-0 and I was hooked. I watched them all through the 50s, visiting every Highland league ground in the process, plus quite a few others in Scottish Cup away days. I was priviliged in that time to watch the best ever Caley side, 51 to 53ish, with Bobby Bolt, Ginger McKenzie, Willie Bruce, Joopy Mitchell etc etc. Happy days! I went off to college in about 1960 and never really lived in Inverness again, apart from about 18 months in 63/64.

But I still followed Caley's fortunes from a distance, and had I been in Inverness at the time leading up to the merger, I would definitely voted against it. At that time I felt Caley should have 'gone it alone'. Looking back now I have to admit that, had that happened, their destiny would have been much the same as the other 3 who managed to do it alone (ie predominately lower leagues with occasional forays into the second top tier).

I'm happy to say that I quickly embraced ICT and over the past 17 years they have put me through all the emotions that I ever experienced with Caley - elation when we win, despair when we lose, frustration, anticipation, excitement - the whole lot.

I get up to see ICT live about half a dozen times a season, plus I see their TV games and obviously watch all the highlights. On top of that I have converted many friends down here in Englandshire to be ICT supporters too. There must be at least 20 who have adopted ICT as their Scottish team, and it is always the first thing we talk about when we meet up.

So, to sum up, I feel sorry for the 'refuseniks'. It is they who, through their 'dog in the manger' attitude, have missed out on 17 wonderful years, with I hope, many more to come.

[Sir C the 3rd]

I think some people are burying their head in the sand when it comes to how many people refuse to watch ICT. In my work alone there is at least 20 people, fair enough its a big place and maybe they wouldn't go every week but they would go sometimes at least. As they do with their new teams Rangers, Celtic, Aberdeen, CLACH! etc.

But the thing is, merger was 17 years ago now. Lots of these people will now have kids who also refuse there kids to go to the games. So to say its 6 fans that don't go is wrong, really wrong. I'd say at least 500-1000 people either refuse or are not allowed to go to ICT matches.

Not all fans were members or season ticket holders. You didnt need to be at ?1-?2 to get into a game at that time, there wasn't really a massive incentive then. As Charles says was it 226 people who voted against or around that number? Were Caley alone not getting crowds of 2000+ in there scottish cup adventures? Indeed I wasnt a Thistle season ticket holder or member and some of my mates werent either. Some of them havent set foot in an ICT match in Inverness. A bit silly to say then that at most around 100 people arent going to games.

When you translate that into money over 17 years, its a lot!!

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

As Arnold Toynbee once said to me "As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility.?

And I, after three years of refusenik - esque denial and contemplation - decided that I would pledge my allegiance to INVERNESS CALEDONIAN THISTLE FC.

And I dont have any regrets. Well apart from having to sing feckin Jaggie songs

[CaleyD]

Wow....just done a quick count on the poll voting and it seems the merger could have cost us as many as 7100 fans who now refuse to attend games!!!

If we split the clubs again and operated a system where Caley played one week and Thistle the next, do you think we could win them all back?

[Yngwie]

If we split the clubs again and operated a system where Caley played one week and Thistle the next, do you think we could win them all back?

Only if the games were against Rothes etc.

[Scotty]

I think some people are burying their head in the sand when it comes to how many people refuse to watch ICT. In my work alone there is at least 20 people, fair enough its a big place and maybe they wouldn't go every week but they would go sometimes at least. As they do with their new teams Rangers, Celtic, Aberdeen, CLACH! etc.

Just a quick question though ... and a serious one. How many of those 20 were actually "Caley" or "Thistle" fans who were at Kingsmills or Telford Street regularly or even semi-regularly ? And how many of them already had Rangers, Celtic, Aberdeen or some other senior league team as their "big team" before ICT joined the senior ranks ?

Yes, there are refuseniks, and there are probably more of them than those of us with an ICT bias or affinity would care to admit to or perhaps believe. However, the other side of the coin I would suggest is that there are also far less of them than the refusenik camp would have us believe. As with many other things, the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

[Charles Bannerman]

I think some people are burying their head in the sand when it comes to how many people refuse to watch ICT. In my work alone there is at least 20 people. I'd say at least 500-1000 people either refuse or are not allowed to go to ICT matches.

Not all fans were members or season ticket holders. You didnt need to be at £1-£2 to get into a game at that time, there wasn't really a massive incentive then. As Charles says was it 226 people who voted against or around that number? Were Caley alone not getting crowds of 2000+ in there scottish cup adventures? Indeed I wasnt a Thistle season ticket holder or member and some of my mates werent either. Some of them havent set foot in an ICT match in Inverness. A bit silly to say then that at most around 100 people arent going to games.

No, EXACTLY that number voted NO when the merger question was put for a second time on 1st December 1993 and that was the biggest vote against any apsect of the merger that there ever was at any Caley meeting.

Let's also remember the circumstances surrounding the number rising to as high as 226 after 50 had voted against on 9th September. Both sides of the debate within Caley recruited furiously for about two months in order to pack as many people as they could into that Rose Street meeting in a desperate bid by both sides for their will to prevail. So really, that 226 is absolutely dead strength among those who felt that way. Anyone within geographical supporting range and remotely inclined not to attend ICT matches was in there. We also know that a great number of these people, and most of them sooner rather than later, have been coming to games.

I also wish posters would stop quoting attendance figures on this thread which are totally irrelevant to the subject. Yes, there may well have been "2000 plus" at Scottish Cup ties but, given a core home support of about 500, I find it difficult to believe that too many of this 2000 plus, who always emerged out of the woodwork for the glorious moments, were rabid, diehard Caley fans who felt so passionately about their club that they resolved never to darken the door of the new one. Out of a core home support of about 500, the majority of whom have for a long time come to games, you just can't get a number of refuseniks of any significant magnitude.

If you want to add in a figure for Jags refuseniks, then, like everything else, you have to take a proportionally much smaller number.

Then there's the suggestion that there are "at least 20" refuseniks at one work place. That reminds me of the story I saw in a paper today about a search to trace any of the 19 (nineteen) people who apparently attended a Beatles concert in Dingwall before the Fab Four became famous(no off topic jokes please!)

You could more or less guarantee that 50 of these 19 will, like Celtic fans who were allegedly in Seville, make themselves known!

But the absolute bottom line of this whole tale is - the number of refuseniks, however small, actually doesn't matter. Without their presence, ICT rose through the ranks to the top table of Scottish football within a decade and there it remains. Any other arrangement which suited the wishes of these refuseniks would have had no chance of having done so.

So in the words of the Lord High Executioner in The Mikado - "they will none of them be missed!"

Edited March 15, 2011 by Charles Bannerman