Humble Pie Version 2.0

[RiG]

you shouldnt have a go at fans who have knee jerk reactions to bad results and then do exactly the same thing yourself when we get a good one

After certain posters got a slagging after the fantastic Rangers result should those who slated the 'negative posters' now be themselves forced to eat humble pie after another abject performance by ICT?

[Johnboy]

I was one of those who slated the negative posters after the Rangers game....

The difference is I'm not calling for the manager to be replaced.... :018:

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Drop Bazza - Keep McBain in the middle and Rankin on the right - Fer fecks sake - Was that not shyte tactics??

[Harry Chibber]

IHE we have 2 games in 2 days just on the back of an massive effort against Rangers.. of course we have had to change the team about

McBain was one of our better players today

RIG, it's time the players started to take responsibility for performances, CC can only pick the team and as you pointed out on the matchday thread we were th better team for the first half hour, which shows CC had the right set up!

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Did Rankin have his best ever game against the HUNS ?? SO play him on the right!!!! Morgan is not fully match fit. McBain will always make the effort but we need more than that.

I am once again only pointing out some naievity.

[RiG]

RIG, it's time the players started to take responsibility for performances, CC can only pick the team and as you pointed out on the matchday thread we were th better team for the first half hour, which shows CC had the right set up!

Yup quite right. A few players let themselves down I feel today and you have to wonder how much they wanted the game after getting that result over Rangers? They will have to lift themselves big style against St. Mirren which hopefully they will do.

Rankin only went onto the right after the substitutions were made during that (Rangers) game.

[tm4tj]

But it's the time of year for naievity play.

[Harry Chibber]

Did Rankin have his best ever game against the HUNS ?? SO play him on the right!!!! Morgan is not fully match fit. McBain will always make the effort but we need more than that.

I am once again only pointing out some naievity.

Rankin scored coming from the right he obviously thought that he would have more oppertunities to crack an effort on his left foot, which was the case.  To be honest we are lacking right wingers with Hart out and Bazza probably knacked and Morgan is only going to get match fit from playing games... would usualy agree regarding McBain but he was driving with the ball today in the second half and the only player creating anything

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

The Rankin Hun goal was a one off. You are over defending CC and if you dont refrain I am not going to stay at yours next Saturday.

[Harry Chibber]

:015:

CC is god.... CC is the messaih.... CC is Father Christmas.... will I book you a Travel Inn??  :016:

[Johnboy]

The Rankin Hun goal was a one off. You are over defending CC and if you dont refrain I am not going to stay at yours next Saturday.

Brilliant comment, IHE.... He's now scored two superb goals in consecutive matches.... hardly a feckin "one-off" 

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

:017: :017: :017: So he was playing on the right wing and cut inside and scored again. DOH. Smell the feckin roses.  :020: :020:

[clacher_holiday2]

its upto the manager to focus players after big efforts like coming from 1-0 down against rangers, if we had appointed somebody more experienced than christie then maybe it wouldnt be an issue, but we didnt and he have to live with it now.  every manager thats taken over our club has done so at times of transition on and off the park, christies been the first whose jobs its been to stablise things, which is really a job for somebody with alot more experience at the top level.

despite his 'legend' status amongst older ict fans its important to remember that hes never actually played at the top level for any length of time.  compare him as a player for ict a few years ago to the likes of black or rankin now, these guys have got a **** of alot more ability than him and are proving it at a level he couldnt hack it at.   ..................my point being that in years to come winning a game against rangers 2-1 to these guys wont be such an 'extraordinary achievment for a club like inverness' as it is to christie.  if they were coaching a side that had ended a poor run by beating the gers then theyd know exactly how to prepare them for their next match having now had experience christie never gained.

to me christie is a naive small town boy thats struggling to come to grips with the top league and compete, perform and learn consistantly at a level he really should be capable of, very much like he struggled to do as a player.

[clacher_holiday2]

just read that all back and i know im going to take some stick for writing this, sadly i think its all true.  couldnae do it as a player and probably never will as the boss...

i hope im not being too harsh on the guy, although maybe he'll say he can handle it himself, if he couldnt then hes in the wrong job

[Harry Chibber]

as has been said already CC is learning, just as every manager has to.. you mention players not playing at a high level not being good managers.... how about Wenger, Mourinho, Ferguson, Benitez... etc. etc.

I have played under many a manager that I have not got on with and not agreed with tactics implemented but ultimately I knew it was down to me not letting the team down... a manager can only do so much and yesterday I thought we were in set up well...

[The Mantis]

Apart from Rankin's last minute goal, one or two people were wondering in the first half yesterday, whether he should have been playing, as it seemed his heid was still in the clouds from Wednesday night.....

BTW I'm not sure that Black or Rankin are actually better players than Charlie, though they'll probably develop by playing at a higher level than he did. If long time guys like Rossco and Royston can play in the SPL, Charlie would have been a hit I'm sure if age hadn't caught up with him. That's not being parochial, I don't even come from the Sneck, but Charlie was a gifted player for sure.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Do'nt be giving him any ideas - He will be replacing Blackie as player manger next.

[clacher_holiday2]

as i said he should be capable, what i didnt say was that he shouldve been as a player aswell but it didnt work out.

if rankin, black, dargo, dods were playing in the lower divisions at the level christie did while in the professional leagues then we can all imagine the impact that theyd have.  those players id say are much better than he ever was as a player, thats not to say he shouldnt be able to coach them well, my point was more that theyve got more experience at there age than christie ever did in his whole carear.

as for wenger, mourinho, ferguson, benitez etc theres no garuntee that they could cut it in the spl, paul le guen has the cv of a top young european manager behind him and hes been dropping points to everybody and has put an absolute shambles of a team together.  all of those managers have had a **** of alot of experience at the top level in their countries as players and coaches, just because they were never ronaldinhos or zidane it doesnt mean they didnt learn the game from the top.  christie hasnt ever.

ive actually got confidence he could become a good manager someday but he shouldve started at the bottom, he should be at peterhead, elgin or the highland league just now, the ict job has come far too soon for him.  robertson and brewster spent their working lives in the top flight and learnt everything from dealing with transfers, contracts, coaching, preparing yourself for big/small games and everything that goes with being involved with a decent sized club, all from the dressing room.  when charlie was the age that robertson first starting scoring in the premier division he was playing against players who were half p1shed most of the time and had team talks over fish suppers in the pub.

the ict dugour isnt a bloody school, certainly not anymore now we're in the spl.  his time at celtic just wasnt enough for him, if he couldnt hack it there he shouldve tried to get himself in with another league club.  as much as he has matured since that time the profile of a guy with the world at his feet but blows it all to move home as a younger guy isnt who you want in charge.  could you imagine if the likes of say macaffery or parrat decided they were homesick and admitted defeat to having spl carears and ended up playing for a junior side?  youd be happy for them to go and you definitley wouldnt put them in charge of a team struggling to find a place in the top flight no matter how much theyd changed.

just think his appointment was a mistake, the first the boards made, putting parkie in next to him was a mistake aswell as he doesnt have a comanding presence at all.  i think we'll get away with it this season but with the potential for a strong first division team coming up increasing over the next 3-4 season we really need to be thinking ahead

[The Mantis]

Fecks sake clacher, no need to rewrite War and Peace, did you start your new year celebrations early  :015: :015: :015: :015: :015:

All I was saying is, I disagree with this bit:

these guys have got a **** of alot more ability than him and are proving it at a level he couldnt hack it at.

Unless it was chibber you wrote all that for of course  :014:

[Harry Chibber]

as i said he should be capable, what i didnt say was that he shouldve been as a player aswell but it didnt work out.

if rankin, black, dargo, dods were playing in the lower divisions at the level christie did while in the professional leagues then we can all imagine the impact that theyd have.  those players id say are much better than he ever was as a player, thats not to say he shouldnt be able to coach them well, my point was more that theyve got more experience at there age than christie ever did in his whole carear.

as for wenger, mourinho, ferguson, benitez etc theres no garuntee that they could cut it in the spl, paul le guen has the cv of a top young european manager behind him and hes been dropping points to everybody and has put an absolute shambles of a team together.  all of those managers have had a **** of alot of experience at the top level in their countries as players and coaches, just because they were never ronaldinhos or zidane it doesnt mean they didnt learn the game from the top.  christie hasnt ever.

ive actually got confidence he could become a good manager someday but he shouldve started at the bottom, he should be at peterhead, elgin or the highland league just now, the ict job has come far too soon for him.  robertson and brewster spent their working lives in the top flight and learnt everything from dealing with transfers, contracts, coaching, preparing yourself for big/small games and everything that goes with being involved with a decent sized club, all from the dressing room.  when charlie was the age that robertson first starting scoring in the premier division he was playing against players who were half p1shed most of the time and had team talks over fish suppers in the pub.

the ict dugour isnt a bloody school, certainly not anymore now we're in the spl.  his time at celtic just wasnt enough for him, if he couldnt hack it there he shouldve tried to get himself in with another league club.  as much as he has matured since that time the profile of a guy with the world at his feet but blows it all to move home as a younger guy isnt who you want in charge.  could you imagine if the likes of say macaffery or parrat decided they were homesick and admitted defeat to having spl carears and ended up playing for a junior side?  youd be happy for them to go and you definitley wouldnt put them in charge of a team struggling to find a place in the top flight no matter how much theyd changed.

just think his appointment was a mistake, the first the boards made, putting parkie in next to him was a mistake aswell as he doesnt have a comanding presence at all.  i think we'll get away with it this season but with the potential for a strong first division team coming up increasing over the next 3-4 season we really need to be thinking ahead

Charlie has sat in the background while Robbo and Brewster were in charge and had a very close relationship with Pele when he was in charge so that's where his experience is.  CC has progressed with the club and cares for it more than any other manager ever could, he has definitely made some wrong decisions at times this season but he will ultimately learn from them and I personally think he will be at the helm for a very, very long time.... so all you doubters get used to it!!

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Fer fecks sake. Look at the team today - look at the system.  :020: :020:

[clacher_holiday2]

charlie doesnt have enough experience because he couldnt hack the top league as a player chibber, it cant be argued against, no amount of hanging around as part of the backroom staff can give you what 15 years of playing experience can.  there were questions on here about why he was still employed at the club as the raffle manager or even a coach under brewster, nevermind as boss, was he really that much of a 'legend' that he deserves a job for life?  surely we're at a stage in our existence now where that kind of thinkings ridiculous?  if he wasnt employed by us his status in our history would be in no way lost, no other club hangs onto their past by literally hanging onto their past!

do you agree that the top jobs come too soon for him at least?  thats what i said in my last post, theres no way he couldve made a stronger application than the rest of the condidates from an objective point of view.  we went for what was considered the safe option in terms off other clubs poaching him and bennet/the board were too bliase about the prospect of relegation in considering his appointment

why do you support him so much anyway, youve never actually said!

[Pele_Is_God]

Some valid points clacher.The forum seems to be split into the 'christie haters' and 'christie lovers' :015:.No seriously can't really judge him yet, wait to the end of the season to do that.So far i think hes made some mistakes, but he's still learning.I'm not a fan of his interviews though, EVERY interview ends with the fact that were the smallest club in the SPL with the least rescorces, probably true.However Charlie seems to try and make it seem like a big gap when that just is not true, we can't use these excuses all the time.A little ambition wouldn't go amiss.

Happy new year everyone :022:

[Harry Chibber]

charlie doesn't have enough experience because he couldn't hack the top league as a player chibber, it cant be argued against, no amount of hanging around as part of the backroom staff can give you what 15 years of playing experience can.  there were questions on here about why he was still employed at the club as the raffle manager or even a coach under brewster, nevermind as boss, was he really that much of a 'legend' that he deserves a job for life?  surely we're at a stage in our existence now where that kind of thinkings ridiculous?  if he wasn't employed by us his status in our history would be in no way lost, no other club hangs onto their past by literally hanging onto their past!

do you agree that the top jobs come too soon for him at least?  that's what i said in my last post, theres no way he couldve made a stronger application than the rest of the condidates from an objective point of view.  we went for what was considered the safe option in terms off other clubs poaching him and bennet/the board were too bliase about the prospect of relegation in considering his appointment

why do you support him so much anyway, youve never actually said!

You obviously ignored my last post re Wenger etc. who also have not had 15 years experience playing football at the top level... so if they can hack it in, arguably the best league in Europe, then I'm sure CC is at no disadvantage.  Yes, the job might have come too early for him but you could easily say that about Robbo and Brew but yet they have not received half as much stick as Chirstie has...

Name the top 4/5 managers of all time.... then count how many years they were in charge of their respective clubs... success comes from persistency and if we have a manager that cares for the best interests for this club and is giving his all then he is going to learn more and get better the more seasons he is in charge.... it really is as simple as that!

I believe that knowing the club inside and out is a more attractive resamay than half the journey man managers that were on offer at the time... not to mention, as you have, the loyalty issue we have had to deal with on the last 2 appointments.

"why do you support him so much anyway"

because I have had no reason not to... I will give the club and manager every inch of support I can, I have done since I had my first season ticket in 94 and will continue to.... call it blind faith if you want but I think CC is doing his up most to make ICT into a major SPL club and although mistakes will be made along the way... criticising his appointment isn't going to help.

[clacher_holiday2]

"You obviously ignored my last post re Wenger etc. who also have not had 15 years experience playing football at the top level... so if they can hack it in, arguably the best league in Europe, then I'm sure CC is at no disadvantage.  Yes, the job might have come too early for him but you could easily say that about Robbo and Brew but yet they have not received half as much stick as Chirstie has... "

i actually replied to it, robbo and brew were both a success as players and arguably a club of our size was the right first step on their managerial carears, with both expecting to one day go onto better things.  christie was hired with the hope that he wouldnt be so easily tempted away as you say, are we really scared of competiion for our manager, wheres the ambition there?  check out the experience of the 4 coaches you mentioned earlier and tell me how christies compares, seen as you were the one who brought up their names.

--

mourinho early carear from wikipedia-

Early years

Mourinho's playing career consisted of a few generally unsuccessful spells at small clubs. His clear aptitude was his impressive managing and organisational ability and from an early age he prepared match reports and dossiers for his father's teams. He also has a degree in Physical Education, specialising in sports methodology and worked as a high school coach.

After low-key backroom jobs at Estrela da Amadora and his hometown club Vitória de Setúbal in the early 1990s, Mourinho soon earned the nickname Tradutor (translator), when he worked with Sir Bobby Robson as his translator (technically speaking, as an interpreter) at both Sporting Clube de Portugal (Sporting Lisbon) and then F.C. Porto (alias FCP).

He then followed Robson to FC Barcelona in 1996 where he learned Catalan. When Robson left for PSV, he stayed at the Catalonia side and worked with Robson's replacement, Dutch coach Louis van Gaal. Mourinho's undoubted confidence and personality helped him get beyond his original role, as he began to participate actively in coaching sessions and management meetings. Eventually, Mourinho coached FC Barcelona B.

--

cant argue with the names and teams he worked with there, he also started his managerial carear at barcelona B before moving back to protugal to manage 3 clubs, impossible to compare the carears of jose and charlie.  charlies spent only a short time of his whole carear involved with top flight football at celtic then briefly as a member of the backroom staff once we got promoted, everythign else was diddy league

fergusons playing and early carear-

Playing career

Ferguson grew up in Govan and supported Rangers. He began as an amateur at Queen's Park, making his debut at 16 as a striker. He described his first match as a "nightmare"[1] but scored Queen's Park's goal in a 2-1 defeat against Stranraer. As Queen's Park were an amateur team he also worked in the Clyde shipyards as an apprentice tool-worker, where he became an active trade union shop steward.

Although he scored 15 goals in his 31 games for Queen's Park, he could not command a regular place in the side and moved to St Johnstone in 1960. He continued to score regularly at St Johnstone, he was still unable to command a regular place and regularly requested transfers. Although he was out of favour at the club, their failure to sign a forward led the manager to select Ferguson for a match against Rangers, in which he scored a hat trick in a surprise victory. Dunfermline signed him the following summer (1964), and Ferguson became a full-time professional footballer.

The following season (1964-65), Dunfermline were strong challengers for the Scottish League and reached the Scottish Cup Final, but Ferguson was dropped for the final after a poor performance in a league game against St Johnstone. Dunfermline lost the final 3-2 to Celtic, then failed to win the League by one point.

In 1967, he joined Rangers for £65,000, then a record fee for a transfer between two Scottish clubs. He was blamed for a goal that they conceded in the 1969 Scottish cup final,[2] and was forced to play for the club's junior side instead of the first team.[3] According to his brother, Ferguson was so upset by the experience that he threw his losers' medal away.[4] His time at Rangers was also marred due to discrimination he suffered after his marriage to his wife Cathie, who was a Catholic.[5]

The following October, Nottingham Forest wanted to sign Ferguson,[6] but his wife was not keen on moving to England at that time so he went to Falkirk instead. He was promoted to player-coach there, but when John Prentice became manager he removed Ferguson's coaching responsiblities. Ferguson responded by requesting a transfer and moved to Ayr United, where he finished his playing career.

Early managerial career

East Stirlingshire

In June 1974, Ferguson was appointed manager of East Stirlingshire, at the comparatively young age of 32. It was a part-time job that paid £40 per week, and the club didn't have a single goalkeeper at the time.[7] He immediately gained a reputation as a disciplinarian, with one of his players later saying he had "never been afraid of anyone before but Ferguson was a frightening ******* from the start." His players admired his tactical decisions, however, and the club's results improved considerably.

The following October, Ferguson was invited to manage St. Mirren. Although they were below East Stirlingshire in the league, they were a bigger club and although Ferguson felt a degree of loyalty towards East Stirlingshire, he decided to join St. Mirren after taking advice from Jock Stein.[8]

St Mirren

Ferguson was manager of St Mirren from 1974-1978. Despite having to look after the team with a small budget, he was able to achieve promotion for the side to the Scottish First division in 1977. However, due to a dispute with the club's chairman, Ferguson wanted to make significant changes to St. Mirren e.g. change the clubs famous black and white kit to a new one, he was sacked the following year for "unpardonable swearing at a lady on club premises"[9] and was not able to claim wrongful dismissal against the club at an industrial tribunal. St Mirren were the only club ever to sack Sir Alex Ferguson. It is rumoured that Ferguson had already agreed to join Aberdeen before his dispute with St Mirren, a rumour which probably had a good deal to do with his failure to claim wrongful dismissal.

--

cant argue with his playing carear to be honest, one time record transfer in scotland and spent plenty of time at big clubs working with the biggest names in football at the time, not graeme bennet and steve patterson!  he also started his managerial carear at east stirling, who were at the time actually ahead of st mirren, his next club!  started at the bottom as botha player and manager, christie hasnt.

--

benitiez

Early career

Second Division Player

Benítez was a product of the Real Madrid cantera, joining the club as a youth in 1974. He progressed through the ranks, eventually playing for Castilla CF, the Real reserve team, in the Segunda División. He also enrolled as a student at INEF, the sports faculty at Universidad Politécnica de Madrid. In 1979 he played five times for the Spain Universities XI at the World Student Games in Mexico City and in 1982 he obtained a degree in Physical Education. In 1981 he joined Tercera División side AD Parla, helping them gain promotion to Segunda División B. He also continued to play for AD Parla until 1985 when he signed for Segunda División B club Linares CF. A thyroid injury saw him miss almost the entire 1985/86 season and he subsequently retired as a player.

Real Madrid coach

In 1986 he joined the Real Madrid coaching staff and gained experience with various Real junior teams. In 1987 and 1989 he won two league titles with Castilla B and won a third league title with Real Madrid Youth B in 1990. He then became coach of Real Madrid U-19 team, winning the Spain U-19 Cup in 1991 and the cup and league double in 1993. While at Real, Benítez gained his coaching certificate in 1989 and in the summer of 1990 he taught at a football camp at UC Davis in California. Between 1993 and 1995, he coached Real Madrid B in the Segunda División and he briefly worked as assistant manager to Vicente Del Bosque.

Promotion specialist

His first attempts at senior management away from the Real Madrid fold were less than successful. Benítez was appointed manager of Real Valladolid for the 1995/96 season but was sacked after only two wins in 23 games with the club bottom of the Primera División. During the 1996/97 season, Benítez took charge at CA Osasuna in the Segunda División but after only 9 games and one win he was sacked. In 1997, he joined another Segunda División side, CF Extremadura and this time led them to promotion, finishing second in the table behind Deportivo Alavés, after winning 23 out of 42 games. CF Extremadura only survived one season in Primera División, however, and were relegated in 1999 after finishing seventeenth and losing a play-off to Villarreal CF.

Benítez subsequently quit CF Extremadura and took a year out studying at Manchester United, Arsenal and in Italy. He also worked as a commentator/analyst for Eurosport, Marca, El Mundo and local Madrid TV. In 2000 he was appointed manager of CD Tenerife of the Segunda División and with a team that included Mista, Curro Torres and Luis García, he gained promotion to La Liga. CD Tenerife finished third in the table behind Sevilla FC and Real Betis.

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granted no success as a player, but obvious ability as a coach backed up with a **** of alot of experience from college and from the proffessional game.  he spent 10 years behind the scenes at real madrid before finding a club in la liga, who he then got relegated!  chrsite again spent little time of any use at celtic and very little time invovled (in some way or another) in the top league before taking over with us.

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wenger

Playing career

Wenger's playing career was relatively inauspicious. He began playing amateur football as a defender or sweeper for various minor French clubs, while at the same time studying at the Robert Schuman University, where he completed a master's degree in Economics in 1974.

Wenger turned professional in 1978, signing for RC Strasbourg, and making his debut against Monaco. Although Strasbourg won the French league in 1979, Wenger did not feature prominently in the team, playing only three times. In 1981, he obtained a manager's diploma and was appointed the coach of the Strasbourg youth team.

Managerial career

After an unsuccessful spell at Nancy, Wenger's managerial career took off when he became the manager of AS Monaco in 1987. He was initially successful with the club, winning the league in 1988 and the French Cup in 1991, and signing high-calibre players such as Glenn Hoddle, George Weah and Jürgen Klinsmann. However, he was sacked in 1994 after Monaco finished ninth in the league. Wenger, who had refused an earlier proposal by Bayern Munich and the France national team out of loyalty for Monaco,[3] moved on to a successful 18-month stint with the Japanese J. League team Nagoya Grampus Eight, with whom he won the prestigious Emperor's Cup, also helping the club emerge from the bottom three to a runners-up position in the J. League.[3]

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probably the exception to the rule that successful managers all start at the bottom, but the suggestion that christie is capable of becoming wenger is almsot laughable and screams of clutching at straws