Lord Nimmo Smith

[Laurence]

The noble Lord says

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19685344

[WYNESS101]

[caley100]

Well if lord nobbo says it, it must be the law eh? so any companies that go bankrupt, and start a new co the next day with almost the same name, ala UBC owing millions to local businesses better watch out... nimmo is changing the rules!

[dougal]

Meanwhile your typical Orc says

http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&gl=GB#/watch?v=A2s1awtLdyI

Dougal

[CaleyD]

Got to wonder what the SPL hope to gain by continuing to pursue this and paying out the vast sums of money these people will be commanding for their services.

We're not arguing a point of law, they won't be able to enforce any fines and stripping titles means what exactly???

Would be far better if they put the money, time and other resources into sorting out the mess Scottish Football is in instead of trying to save a bit of face from the disaster that occurred because they were operating a system which allowed such things to happen in the first place.

Nobody came out of the summer fiasco looking good and the more they drag it out the more damage that will be done and everyone will just look even worse.

Time to draw the line and move on with stuff that matters instead of further lining the pockets of solicitors etc.

[Kingsmills]

Any sanctions may be difficult to enforce right now but assuming the New Rangers eventually top the First Division, the SPL would be in a position to insist that any sanctions are honoured before allowing them entry.

[CaleyD]

We all know that's not going to happen. The SPL beaks tried everything in their power to keep them in the league...not a chance they'll do anything to prevent them getting back at the first possible opportunity.

What's more, if the game in this country hasn't undergone massive restructuring by the that time then we'll be begging teams to join the top league in order to fill the spaces left by those who have gone to the wall...or who will themselves be getting dismissed for going into administration etc.

The only basis on which they could justify doing what they are doing is one of integrity...and after the carry on in the summer, nobody has any integrity left to protect, so it's a pointless pursuit.

Don't forget...every pound the SPL spend paying these guys is a pound less that will be distributed to the member clubs. It's ultimately the clubs and the fans who are paying for this and setting everything else aside...we simply can't afford to be throwing good money after bad.

[starchief]

If your view is:

The Rangers/Sevco/Newco are nothing to do with Rangers and have no rights to their history and are only in the SFL3, not because of punishment, but because they are a new club.

then

The Rangers/Sevco/Newco shouldn't be punished for a completely different club and cannot be stripped of titles.

My view? If a team of Rangers players, led by a Rangers manager play in Rangers strip at Ibrox, then they are the same club. Just the company has changed. Demotion to SFL3 was punishment. Stripping of titles? Couldn't care less. One for the Celtic supporters (and probably Hibs and Aberdeen) but it does seem pointless. SFL3 was the punishment.

[Oddquine]

If your view is:

The Rangers/Sevco/Newco are nothing to do with Rangers and have no rights to their history and are only in the SFL3, not because of punishment, but because they are a new club.

then

The Rangers/Sevco/Newco shouldn't be punished for a completely different club and cannot be stripped of titles.

My view? If a team of Rangers players, led by a Rangers manager play in Rangers strip at Ibrox, then they are the same club. Just the company has changed. Demotion to SFL3 was punishment. Stripping of titles? Couldn't care less. One for the Celtic supporters (and probably Hibs and Aberdeen) but it does seem pointless. SFL3 was the punishment.

Don't see the logic in

If your view is:

The Rangers/Sevco/Newco are nothing to do with Rangers and have no rights to their history and are only in the SFL3, not because of punishment, but because they are a new club.

then

The Rangers/Sevco/Newco shouldn't be punished for a completely different club and cannot be stripped of titles.

They wouldn't have the titles won by the Oldco to be stripped from them in the first place, though would they, as a new club?

Was there any punishment applied to Sevco really, in the end.......whatever your view is of whether they are new or an Oldco reincarnation?

Either,

Sevco is not Oldco and is not to be punished for Oldco's misdeeds......in which case SFL3 was a concession to them, imo. What other brand new club gets to start on the second rung of the ladder, rather than starting from the ground? It wasn't an option for Airdrieonians.

Oldco attracted a player embargo and a fine for "bringing the game into disrepute" Was it a coincidence that the SFA decided to attach discretionary conditions to Sevco's SFA membership.....conditions to which Sevco agreed? Probably not...but that does not alter the fact that the SFA has that right. ( I would argue that the ability [of three different entities] to make policy on the hoof, because so many of the rules are written in so woolly a way as to be the product of some Government effort at compiling workable law, is a big part of what is wrong with Scottish football.)

And Sevco have no history (bar they can put in their wiki that they rose from the ashes of a club which once played in the SPL, but no longer exists) and no titles to lose......they just have the bricks, mortar and grass assets of Oldco.

or

Sevco is Oldco..were relegated to SFL 3 as punishment for going into liquidation like other clubs have been...but the fact that Sevco is a continuation of Oldco means that, as it happens, there are issues other than the liquidation to be addressed.....and in that case, Sevco will just have to suck up whatever is decided.

They can't have it both ways at the same time......though Sevco is trying. I'm inclined to think, as far as Green is concerned, what he really bought to engender profit for himself and his shareholders, was an enormous fan base which is not prepared to accept the demise of Oldco.......hence the insistence that Sevco is Oldco for money making purposes.....but not for taking responsibility/punishment purposes. Does anyone else see a dichotomy there?

[The Mantis]

What other brand new club gets to start on the second rung of the ladder, rather than starting from the ground? It wasn't an option for Airdrieonians.

It's not the second rung, though. Because the SFL is a closed shop it can invite applications any time it fancies. Airdrie just franchised their way back in, and I'm sure Rangers could have done the same.

[Laurence]

_{Surely the salient point is as the judge says below "}

Lord Nimmo Smith has launched a strongly worded defence of his tribunal, due to rule on Rangers' Employee Benefit Trust payments"

If there is coruption it goes farther than Rangers. It is just not about Rangers but against tax dodging,

There may be a cancer throughtout UK football, we don't know the half of it.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Laurence

[bauhaus]

Laurence,

You hit the nail on the head. Been told umpteen times about 15 clubs in the English premiership using EBTs. They are all dodging tax, and the bigger the club, the better the lawyers to maintain that dodge.

I think that the old / new club have been punished, as Celtic will pass their titles haul while they try to get back to the SPL or whatever guise it be in when they return. As with all these punishments its the fans who are effected most. The players Rangers had during the period in question, also lost them titles, and cups. What punishment should they get for not winning everything. Should we look at every dubious decision in those seasons, and award a new trophy if they changed the outcome.

Should we look at all of the spl being unfair, as both Rangers and Celtic pay their players more than anyone else, Is that fair?

[Laurence]

Should the Glasgow bragging rights in respect of trophies be allowed to overshadow everything

Nobody outside the so called " second city of the British empire ", cares one iota

Lots of strange goings on in football are unexplained

I think the tribunal is a good thing

[dougiedanger]

Laurence,

You hit the nail on the head. Been told umpteen times about 15 clubs in the English premiership using EBTs. They are all dodging tax, and the bigger the club, the better the lawyers to maintain that dodge.

I think that the old / new club have been punished, as Celtic will pass their titles haul while they try to get back to the SPL or whatever guise it be in when they return. As with all these punishments its the fans who are effected most. The players Rangers had during the period in question, also lost them titles, and cups. What punishment should they get for not winning everything. Should we look at every dubious decision in those seasons, and award a new trophy if they changed the outcome.

Should we look at all of the spl being unfair, as both Rangers and Celtic pay their players more than anyone else, Is that fair?

Some amount of Greenesque logic there.

[CaleyD]

_{Surely the salient point is as the judge says below "}

Lord Nimmo Smith has launched a strongly worded defence of his tribunal, due to rule on Rangers' Employee Benefit Trust payments"

If there is coruption it goes farther than Rangers. It is just not about Rangers but against tax dodging,

There may be a cancer throughtout UK football, we don't know the half of it.

The investigation being undertaken by Nimmo and his cronies on behalf of the SPL has nothing whatsoever to do with Tax Dodging. It's looking at dual contracts and whether or not Rangers were in breach of SFA/SPL rules by not declaring that some players were receiving larger salaries than had been registered.

The legality of the EBT's has no baring on the investigation and is being pursued separately by HMRC.

[bauhaus]

Laurence,

You hit the nail on the head. Been told umpteen times about 15 clubs in the English premiership using EBTs. They are all dodging tax, and the bigger the club, the better the lawyers to maintain that dodge.

I think that the old / new club have been punished, as Celtic will pass their titles haul while they try to get back to the SPL or whatever guise it be in when they return. As with all these punishments its the fans who are effected most. The players Rangers had during the period in question, also lost them titles, and cups. What punishment should they get for not winning everything. Should we look at every dubious decision in those seasons, and award a new trophy if they changed the outcome.

Should we look at all of the spl being unfair, as both Rangers and Celtic pay their players more than anyone else, Is that fair?

Some amount of Greenesque logic there.

I have the same feeling for the Portsmouth fans too, they haven't asked for the problems they have had. And Plymouth, and Clydebank, and Airdrie, and Port Vale, Wimbledon etc etc. Been a Kingsmills Jaggie, I never asked for Caledonian to be added to my club, but have had to move on. Doesnt stop me believing we could have achieved our progress with out the merger. If Thistle or Caledonian had got into the scottish league themselves, they would have completely outgrown the others left in the Highland league, and become the dominant force in the Highlands. But as so many original Caley fans profess, its still not the same as if they still had their original club. Our current home strip takes the biscuit for me, not only does it obliterate Thistle, but it reminds me of Rangers

[Laurence]

Laurence,

You hit the nail on the head. Been told umpteen times about 15 clubs in the English premiership using EBTs. They are all dodging tax, and the bigger the club, the better the lawyers to maintain that dodge.

I think that the old / new club have been punished, as Celtic will pass their titles haul while they try to get back to the SPL or whatever guise it be in when they return. As with all these punishments its the fans who are effected most. The players Rangers had during the period in question, also lost them titles, and cups. What punishment should they get for not winning everything. Should we look at every dubious decision in those seasons, and award a new trophy if they changed the outcome.

Should we look at all of the spl being unfair, as both Rangers and Celtic pay their players more than anyone else, Is that fair?

Some amount of Greenesque logic there.

I have the same feeling for the Portsmouth fans too, they haven't asked for the problems they have had. And Plymouth, and Clydebank, and Airdrie, and Port Vale, Wimbledon etc etc. Been a Kingsmills Jaggie, I never asked for Caledonian to be added to my club, but have had to move on. Doesnt stop me believing we could have achieved our progress with out the merger. If Thistle or Caledonian had got into the scottish league themselves, they would have completely outgrown the others left in the Highland league, and become the dominant force in the Highlands. But as so many original Caley fans profess, its still not the same as if they still had their original club. Our current home strip takes the biscuit for me, not only does it obliterate Thistle, but it reminds me of Rangers

Maybe the merger was handled badly - as an outsider looking in, Maybe a new name like Inverness on it's own, or a new tag like Highlanders, would have been better. I can understand the fans wanting to hang on to history, but clubs do evolve, see Newton Heath, or Royal Arsenal , or Ardwick , history is important,!

To get back on topic, it is history that has bogged Rangers down. The new set up should dump history, at Ibrox, it is tarnished beyond belief.

M K Dons sent all the medals cups and regelia to the Town Hall at Merton. They had the faith to make a new start and leave the old Wimbledon behind.

So should Rangers hanging on to the past will only get in the way.

Glasgow is a glorious City reconised throughout the world. Rangers owners should show it and their fans the respect they deserve.

http://www.theglasgowstory.com/storyd.php

[dougiedanger]

Laurence,

You hit the nail on the head. Been told umpteen times about 15 clubs in the English premiership using EBTs. They are all dodging tax, and the bigger the club, the better the lawyers to maintain that dodge.

I think that the old / new club have been punished, as Celtic will pass their titles haul while they try to get back to the SPL or whatever guise it be in when they return. As with all these punishments its the fans who are effected most. The players Rangers had during the period in question, also lost them titles, and cups. What punishment should they get for not winning everything. Should we look at every dubious decision in those seasons, and award a new trophy if they changed the outcome.

Should we look at all of the spl being unfair, as both Rangers and Celtic pay their players more than anyone else, Is that fair?

Some amount of Greenesque logic there.

I have the same feeling for the Portsmouth fans too, they haven't asked for the problems they have had. And Plymouth, and Clydebank, and Airdrie, and Port Vale, Wimbledon etc etc. Been a Kingsmills Jaggie, I never asked for Caledonian to be added to my club, but have had to move on. Doesnt stop me believing we could have achieved our progress with out the merger. If Thistle or Caledonian had got into the scottish league themselves, they would have completely outgrown the others left in the Highland league, and become the dominant force in the Highlands. But as so many original Caley fans profess, its still not the same as if they still had their original club. Our current home strip takes the biscuit for me, not only does it obliterate Thistle, but it reminds me of Rangers

All makes sense now.