Butcher has to Go!

[The Mantis]

The fact that you want Ian McCall in as ICT manager shows how much of a clue you have. You have the right avatar i.e. a comedian. :(

Can't understand who you're replying to here - but I will say that even though I dislike the wee paint pot kicker, who has a massive sense of his own importance, it's obvious that he's usually managed to come out on top over our teams over the years.

The only exception has been with clubs like Clydebank where we had vastly superior players at our disposal (plus Pele) and McCall's's influence was slight.

In games like yesterday, and the Alba Cup, when there's not much between the sets of players, I'm standing there at ht knowing we should have had the game buried, that one goal would never be enough, and feeling that while TB was inside shouting and rousing the troops, McCall would be making a few changes, and quietly, confidently and assertively explaining them to his players.

[CaleyD]

It's extremely difficult to find a manager that ticks all the boxes, but fairly easy to get one who ticks very few.

Butcher signed a couple of useful players when he had no transfer money, convinced a couple of others to stay who we could easily have lost had it been anyone else...not to mention the fact that he was basically taking on an impossible mission...either to save us from relegation, and failing that, take us straight back to the SPL.

The question I tend to ask myself is....would it been any different under another manager, and what other managers who were available at the time, or are available now, would have us in a better position?

Had we signed a stronger tactician (which is where I think Butcher might be lacking a little), would they have been the kind of manager who could have retained and added decent players to allow them to realise the benefits of that?

Unlike Brewster who, certainly from the outside looking in, was getting everything wrong and had lost the respect of a large number of people including players, we have a Manager who is well liked by the lads he has working under him and who I believe (despite performances and results) are working for him.

IMO, we have a couple of small problems that need sorting. There's the confidence issue with the players who seem to get into a state of panic when they go a goal down, or when ahead and the opposition pull a goal back, and we also have an issue whereby we're not adapting to counter changes made by the opposition.

We know the players are capable, we've seen that with our own eyes. We know that Butcher is capable of a game plan that is getting us goals...certainly at the outset.

As Jailender has pointed out, our problems are far from being unique at this level, and as I've stated several times since the start of the season, we need to be better managing our own expectations in that regard.

I don't think Butchers "PR" is what is winning people over or clouding anyone's judgement, certainly not mine. I just don't necessarily agree that things would be any better under anyone else right now and we certainly can't afford to be blowing money on changing managers and the inevitable changes in squad that would come with that.

If we're out of the race come the last half dozen games then we can think about what is best for the future and whether that should include the current managerial setup.....if we can still afford them come that time.....or if we need another shake up.

The best thing we, as fans, can do right now is continue to get behind the manager and team. That's not to say any of them are beyond criticism....far from it, but I don't think calls for Butchers departure are either sensible or merited at this time.

[The Mantis]

I've gone from being a guy who HOPED we could bounce straight back, to realising that we're not going to, accepting that we've got TB till end of season, enjoying trips like Firhill yesterday, Viccy Park the other week and Palmerston next week, hoping the muppets, as Johndo calls them, can put somebody in place next year who bleeds ICT.

To me this would mean some combination of 10CC, Bazza, possibly Peanut, even Pele.

Assuming the club's finances could stand it for a couple of years I'd be looking at bringing on some of the youngsters such as Nick Ross and building a side that was decent to watch, even if we didn't present any kind of promotion challenge till about the season after next.

That's what ICT is all about IMO. Butcher was appointed for the short term and it looks like a fairly bold gamble that has failed.

[DALNEIGHCALEY]

Good post , and as one of those that tend to think he is perhaps not the best manager and have stated why I think he is lacking as a manager would be interested to hear from those that think he has done a good job (not he needs time, is on a tight budget, etc ) but what he has done to convince them he can turn things around

You'll be waiting a long time for the apologists to reply mate . He's the ICT manager thats all that matters to the apologists , the fact that he's failed everywhere else and is obviously failing here doesn't really matter to them .

[kencar]

I've gone from being a guy who HOPED we could bounce straight back, to realising that we're not going to, accepting that we've got TB till end of season, enjoying trips like Firhill yesterday, Viccy Park the other week and Palmerston next week, hoping the muppets, as Johndo calls them, can put somebody in place next year who bleeds ICT.

To me this would mean some combination of 10CC, Bazza, possibly Peanut, even Pele.

Assuming the club's finances could stand it for a couple of years I'd be looking at bringing on some of the youngsters such as Nick Ross and building a side that was decent to watch, even if we didn't present any kind of promotion challenge till about the season after next.

That's what ICT is all about IMO. Butcher was appointed for the short term and it looks like a fairly bold gamble that has failed.

Good post :025:

[Scotty]

Get used to the fact that, if you don't follow the popular opinions on this forum you will be hounded and eventually barred.

I completely agree that Butcher is incompetent, tactically inept and is a complete disaster for this club.

I was barred from the Partick thread today for referring to him as English! the assumption was that this was a derogatory term. it was not. However, when I called him a **** it was.

Can I "jokingly" say that Scotty is becoming a bit of a naturalised Canadian fool?

to answer your points

01: No, you can have whatever opinions you want. but if you dont follow the site rules as it pertains to abuse etc you will receive the appropriate sanction - a thread ban, moderation, a timed posting ban, etc - the result is a consequence of your actions (choosing to use certain adjectives to make the post more inflammatory) not your opinions.

I have said it till I am blue in the face, opinions are fine, its the additional barbs or abuse that some posters feel the need to post alongside them that is the problem.

02: I have no issue with the opinion expressed.

03: derogatory we can deal with, but the way you used it was in my/our opinion a racist term. you have every right to hold the opinion that he is no good at his job but you seem to feel the need to add "English" to it as if being English makes the same level of performance worse. In that context, you are being racist.

04: Personal abuse (jokingly or not) is the last refuge of those without an excuse for their own behaviour .... classy. Fool or not, Canadians seem to show a lot more tolerance for nationality than you do.

[crownjaggie]

Not going to quote Gringo Jnrs reply # 15 again, but we are in a league where 7 teams are in with a realistic shout of winning. All those teams will be taking points off each other, throughout the season. We have yet to string a run of wins together, but are still in touch. Not suggesting we will finish top, but it won't take many games when the team performs for 90 minutes instead of 45 for us to find ourselves further up this league.

As for earlier suggestions about Brewster in this thread. I think he was good for us the first time around, as we effectively had 2 captains on the pitch and we benefitted from his playing experience. His tenure at Dundee Untied should have had klaxons going off among our directors who should have realised he was not ready for out and out management.

[Renegade]

As for earlier suggestions about Brewster in this thread. I think he was good for us the first time around, as we effectively had 2 captains on the pitch and we benefitted from his playing experience. His tenure at Dundee Untied should have had klaxons going off among our directors who should have realised he was not ready for out and out management.

That's a good point, but after Butcher's rather relative success in his second season at Motherwell, he had essentially what Brew had at Dundee United twice! Two absolute disasters, at both Sydney and Brentford. If you actually compare the records of Butcher at Brentford and Brewster at Dundee United, they are really both as bad as each other, with Butcher's only really being slightly better (Butcher at Brentford - P23 W5 L13 D5 and Brewster at DUFC - P30 W3 L16 D11). Two managers who quite simply can't cut it.

[starchief]

the fact that he's failed everywhere else and is obviously failing here doesn't really matter to them .

I thought he did amazingly well at Coventry. Ok at Sunderland. Good at 'Well. Not enough time with Burnley or Sydney. Can you explain why you don't or are you just looking at the sackings (in which case, would you then count Alex Ferguson, Arrigo Sacchi and Jose Mourinho as bad managers as they have also been sacked).

Butcher wasn't my first choice and I'm not convinced he is the long-term option, as I'd prefer the 'empire building' that Pele did, but at the same time, I'm not sure if many would do much better. It's the lack of players IMHO at centre-back and attacking mid. Now part of that blame lies with Butcher for not employing good enough players in that position. But then again, would another manager have been able to find replacements for Mihadjuks, Cowie and Black so easily too, given both budgetary constraints and location?

[Glebeict]

Being Canadian , I will admit that there are a few fools over here but they are most often politicans not sports fans

[Renegade]

the fact that he's failed everywhere else and is obviously failing here doesn't really matter to them .

I thought he did amazingly well at Coventry. Ok at Sunderland. Good at 'Well. Not enough time with Burnley or Sydney. Can you explain why you don't or are you just looking at the sackings (in which case, would you then count Alex Ferguson, Arrigo Sacchi and Jose Mourinho as bad managers as they have also been sacked).

Butcher was never manager of high flyers Burnley, he was actually sacked after a horrific managerial display at then lowly Brentford.

And on your second point, none of those managers have been sacked time and time again, unlike a certain Mr Butcher. None of those aforemetioned names ever had a decent playing career (or in Mourinho's case, no playing career at all), and IMO that says something for their managerial skills when essentially mediocre (and sometimes not even) players (and in Sacchi's case, a shoe salesman!), can make it up to the heights of managing the sort of clubs they have. Mr Butcher on the other hand, is a hugely well known player, and with someone with his sort playing career as manager of a team like ICT, shows to me that his managerial skills leave a lot of be desired.

[starchief]

the fact that he's failed everywhere else and is obviously failing here doesn't really matter to them .

I thought he did amazingly well at Coventry. Ok at Sunderland. Good at 'Well. Not enough time with Burnley or Sydney. Can you explain why you don't or are you just looking at the sackings (in which case, would you then count Alex Ferguson, Arrigo Sacchi and Jose Mourinho as bad managers as they have also been sacked).

Butcher was never manager of high flyers Burnley, he was actually sacked after a horrific managerial display at then lowly Brentford.

And on your second point, none of those managers have been sacked time and time again, unlike a certain Mr Butcher. None of those aforemetioned names ever had a decent playing career (or in Mourinho's case, no playing career at all), and IMO that says something for their managerial skills when essentially mediocre (and sometimes not even) players (and in Sacchi's case, a shoe salesman!), can make it up to the heights of managing the sort of clubs they have. Mr Butcher on the other hand, is a hugely well known player, and with someone with his sort playing career as manager of a team like ICT, shows to me that his managerial skills leave a lot of be desired.

Sorry Brentford. They went through managers like water, which suggests deeper problems than Butcher.

Ferguson was a decent player I believe. I don't think that a good playing career = good manager (which is why I was against Gary McAllister getting the Scotland job without proving himself) but I don't think it's the other way around either.

You say 'sacked time and time again' but were they fair sackings? Look at the list and what I thought of what he did at those jobs, then tell me if you disagree and why (if you want of course). Bobby Robson had a good few sackings, would we dismiss him (I know, I know, but if he was)?

If Butcher was sacked now, then he could quite rightly add ICT to Brentford and Sydney as jobs where he wasn't given enough time to prove himself. He's been hired on the strength of a good run last season to get ICT promoted. I believe in giving a man time to do a job. He's only halfway through. 3/4 of the season left, then it's time to start re-assessing the situation for a longer term goal.

[Caley Stan]

It's a bit sad that one of these threads appears every time we lose a game and it says more about the nature of some sections of our support than it does about Terry Butcher.

I agree with some of the points that have been made about TB's lack of tactical nous. This has been costly in the last two games as teams have sussed our weaknesses out in the first half and exploited them shortly after half-time. I'm sure Butcher realises this as well.

But i don't agree with calls for his head. He has presided over the club's biggest turnover in playing staff in over a decade and has had to deal with a relegation which was largely not of his making. The new team has shown signs of promise. People were saying at half-time in Perth that they'd never seen us play so well. Amongst some of the poor signings he made in the summer, he's uncovered a couple of gems in Hayes and Sanchez, and persuaded Richie Foran to stay. It's worth remembering that going into the Cup final, we had won 4 games in 5 and scored a barrowload of goals against the wee teams.

I think he's building a team, and if he's given a good crack at it i believe that the team can find the consistency needed to mount a challenge for promotion. By a good crack i don't mean 'til the end of the season, i mean the 2 or 3 years that will be needed to finish what he's started.

[TopSix]

I think he's building a team, and if he's given a good crack at it i believe that the team can find the consistency needed to mount a challenge for promotion. By a good crack i don't mean 'til the end of the season, i mean the 2 or 3 years that will be needed to finish what he's started.

[Renegade]

Ferguson was a decent player I believe. I don't think that a good playing career = good manager (which is why I was against Gary McAllister getting the Scotland job without proving himself) but I don't think it's the other way around either.

Ferguson was an alright player I'm led to believe, but nothing overly special. On the last point though, look at Steve Bruce at Sunderland just now. A player with a fairly accomplished career (not as much as Butcher's mind), and he is now managing a fairly decent Premiership side. He is also showing himself to be a fairly decent manager. Butcher has a better playing record than Bruce, but can now only get management jobs at small sides like this one, IMO shows that his managerial skills are nothing special. If he did have decent managerial skills, he would have no problem getting a job in a lower Premiership/Championship, as his big footballing name would no doubt put him as a major candidate in the minds of the boards of teams at this level.

Look at Ossie Ardiles, a World Cup winner and a hugely successful playing career, but he's applying for jobs for clubs like Leyton Orient, Aberdeen and ICT. To me, that says something about how good a manager he must be, when a huge name can't even get a job for teams like these and I think the same attitude can be applied to Butcher.

You say 'sacked time and time again' but were they fair sackings? Look at the list and what I thought of what he did at those jobs, then tell me if you disagree and why (if you want of course). Bobby Robson had a good few sackings, would we dismiss him (I know, I know, but if he was)?

Well, Bobby Robson's dead unfortunately so probably won't take up another management job anytime soon, but if you look at his record, besides the fact that he was sacked by a couple of clubs, he did have a heck of a lot of success. On your main point though, if Butcher had been that good in the first place, he wouldn't have got booted out would he? In fact, I've heard that he was in the relegation zone when he was sacked by Sunderland.

If Butcher was sacked now, then he could quite rightly add ICT to Brentford and Sydney as jobs where he wasn't given enough time to prove himself. He's been hired on the strength of a good run last season to get ICT promoted. I believe in giving a man time to do a job. He's only halfway through. 3/4 of the season left, then it's time to start re-assessing the situation for a longer term goal.

Well if you look at Brentford last season, they were promoted. Whilst it is true that Brentford went through quite a few managers around Butcher, they did seem to have a record of picking duds. Butcher didn't deserve any more time, he was another dud, and they have since found a decent manager who has had the job for roughly two years now. You could say the same about Brew at DUFC. They've been through many managers until they found the right one, but he deserved to go, because he quiet simply was that bad. I've also heard that he was not particularly liked as a person at Brentford, and was rather irritated by the fact that the players couldn't perform at the same level as he did. From what I've been told, by people who have met the man and have a bit more inside knowledge than I do, I have reason to belive that this allegation is not far from the truth.

On the Sydney point, whilst it is true that they have been through a fair number of managers, Butcher wa only there second manager ever, with the job only being available due to them no e able to agree terms with the manager before him. On the whole, Butcher was disliked mainly because his football could be classed as "un-Australian" ie - boring. Whilst he did have a number of problems with things like injuries and losing Dwight Yorke after only the first week of the season, he was once again disliked, mainly due to the fact he failed to repeat the success of former boss Pierre Litbarski despite having a rather large budget, the way many found him to be extremely arrogant, and the fact that he dressed like a "hobo" whilst in the dugout. Whilst he could be argued that he may have deserve more time, most had already grown sick of both him personally, and his footballing style, not unlike that of Craig Brewster (4-5-1 formation, and constant long ball tactics).

is an interview and highlights of the game against Urawa Red mentioned later on by Les Murray, featuring the man who replaced Butcher, Branko Culina, and current Gold Coast boss Miron Bleiberg (someone who I incidently would love to see try his luck over here). Stay tuned for the end of the video when one of the Sydney FC investors comments on the tactics under Culina, compared to that of Butcher.

Here is Australian TV pundit Les Murray, giving his opinion on Butcher's time in the A League, and the way Butcher rudely attacked everything about Australia when he returned to the UK.

Les Murray on Butcher

Again, I am not calling for him to be sacked a he should be given a full season (as long as ICT are not fighting for survival towards the end). I've never felt that ICT would be promoted this season, no matter who was in charge and I don't think Mr Butcher is especially good, when it comes to being a football manager.

Edited November 29, 2009 by Renegade

[tokelyisvictorious]

Ha, that Les Murray video is great, Butcher apparently 'dresses like a hobo on the bench'. :D

[CaleyMad]

Anybody heared the advert on MFR about Half Price Season Tickets?

'Hello Goodbye, I am Terry Butcher, manager of Inverness Caledonian Thistle and ex player of rangers. We would like you to get right behind the team to help us bounce back to the SPLnote sarcuism'

[starchief]

Anybody heared the advert on MFR about Half Price Season Tickets?

'Hello Goodbye, I am Terry Butcher, manager of Inverness Caledonian Thistle and ex player of rangers. We would like you to get right behind the team to help us bounce back to the SPLnote sarcuism'

instead of ex-manager of Inverness Caledonian Thistle and "Hearts legend John Robertson", who would have announced that we probably won't go up this year, so save your money :D

Maybe we could make a rule that no-one's allowed to have played for a team better than ICT

I'm not actually a big supporter of Butcher (I probably mainly agree with Renegade believe it or not) but some of this criticism is banal.

[12th Man]

Whether you have lost faith in him, the board have lost faith in him or the main shareholder have lost faith in him doesn't matter a jot as they can't afford to get rid of him (not saying they want to get rid of him) and his fantastic sidekick Malpas, unless they walk they will both be there until the end of the season so best just get used to it.

[Johnboy]

Whether you have lost faith in him, the board have lost faith in him or the main shareholder have lost faith in him doesn't matter a jot as they can't afford to get rid of him (not saying they want to get rid of him) and his fantastic sidekick Malpas, unless they walk they will both be there until the end of the season so best just get used to it.

It wouldn't cost the club anything to get rid of him now, if it was considered that he was acting or behaving in a manner which contravened the terms and conditions of his contract.

[PullMyFinger]

Whether you have lost faith in him, the board have lost faith in him or the main shareholder have lost faith in him doesn't matter a jot as they can't afford to get rid of him (not saying they want to get rid of him) and his fantastic sidekick Malpas, unless they walk they will both be there until the end of the season so best just get used to it.

It wouldn't cost the club anything to get rid of him now, if it was considered that he was acting or behaving in a manner which contravened the terms and conditions of his contract.

We don't know nor should we know, the terms of his contract. I expect he will be there 'til the end of the season and no matter what he'll be offski then. Shan't shed any tears though.

[absent friend]

One of the problems with a thread like this is that many of us see it for what it is - a boring re-utterance of what has gone before HOWEVER if we say nothing all that is on here is negative comments which is an unfair picture of the real situation.

The silent majority, if they reply are classed as the 'other camp' something I object to. I can and will make up my own mind regarding our managers ability but only after taking other area for consideration into the equation, over time.

I do find it sad on here when other agendas rear their head 'English' 'blue nose' 'ex Rangers' (quote -'note sarcuism') when there is no need for it. There are other sites that pander to this rubbish. I did not realise that he only ever played for Rangers or so you would think, reading the offerings on here.

What camp am I in? In none at the moment, along with many others I would think, unless giving support to the team puts you in a camp.

[latviaman]

One of the problems with a thread like this is that many of us see it for what it is - a boring re-utterance of what has gone before HOWEVER if we say nothing all that is on here is negative comments which is an unfair picture of the real situation.

The silent majority, if they reply are classed as the 'other camp' something I object to. I can and will make up my own mind regarding our managers ability but only after taking other area for consideration into the equation, over time.

I do find it sad on here when other agendas rear their head 'English' 'blue nose' 'ex Rangers' (quote -'note sarcuism') when there is no need for it. There are other sites that pander to this rubbish. I did not realise that he only ever played for Rangers or so you would think, reading the offerings on here.

What camp am I in? In none at the moment, along with many others I would think, unless giving support to the team puts you in a camp.

I sit here in far flung Latvia and amazed at the vitreol being flung TB's way!!

C'mon guys, he is going nowhere till the end of the season, and if things turn round and the team learn to play for 90 + minutes we could be on a winner... a long way to go.. All those who slagged him off might have to eat there words!!

By the way I was going to write in Latvian to Presley, but Narius doesn't have a brother, so who is Presley???

[RiG]

Just so that RiG doesn't think my fasination for Caley has waned recently I thought I would check through your results recently.

I was actually quite surprised to see that with the exception of your result over County in the ALBA Cup semi-final Caley have failed to beat a any team that are currently higher than 6th in the First Division.

All the wins you have got have been against lower league teams in the cups (exception being the one mentioned above).

As for league wins, these have all come against the team currently in the bottom half of the league. Morton, Ayr, Airdrie, Raith and Dunfermline.

As for teams int he top half, I think I'm right in saying the only point picked up was the one against Dundee. You've lost all other games against the top four.

I think only Ayr and Airdrie are the other two teams in the league that haven't beat a team from the current top half teams.

Can't think of many other County fans who would do that much "research" into ICT results to make a post on this forum so I'm glad to see you didn't disappoint.

[PullMyFinger]

We're shite and we know we are. We don't need inbred troglodites to tell us.