Football Banning Orders...

[maimie]

MESSAGE FROM JUSTICE MINISTER CATHY JAMIESON: TACKLING VIOLENCE AND SECTARIANISM AT FOOTBALL MATCHES IN SCOTLAND

I love football and can't remember a time when the new season wasn't eagerly anticipated in my household. Like millions of other football fans across Scotland my family keenly debates fixtures, transfers, injuries and the many other issues that concern and entertain us all. As passionate football fans we all want to see our clubs do well at home and abroad, and the national team qualifying for Euro 2008 would give us great cause for celebration.

But it's not just clubs and players that get discussed in my home. We also talk about the fans and the way their behaviour can make or break a club's reputation. Scottish fans have an excellent global reputation, but football hooliganism and sectarian bigotry continue to tarnish the hard-earned and well-deserved image Scotland has for friendliness.

Year after year we have seen fans who should be united by their love of sport becoming bitter enemies, abusing their club's history, traditions and good name as they attempt to excuse their own bile and bigotry. I've heard this excused as people being only "90 minute bigots" and abusive behaviour dismissed as "harmless banter". But bigotry is bigotry. It can't just be turned on and off, and abuse is certainly not harmless to those on the receiving end. There is no excuse for this type of behaviour and it will not be tolerated any more.

I've no intention of dampening the passion we all feel for our clubs. Far from it, as I want fans to enjoy the matches and take pride in their team's achievements. But I know that genuine football fans have had enough of their game being hijacked by bullies and thugs who only want to indulge in abusive tribal behaviour. It's time to weed out the yobs whose harassing and intimidating behaviour has gone on for long enough. That is why I will be introducing Football Banning Orders in Scotland.

From 1st September 2006 anyone causing trouble, being abusive, violent or bigoted can be banned from going to matches in Scotland, the rest of UK, and overseas for up to 10 years. These individuals can also be banned from other areas such as town centres, railway stations and bars on match days. The message is clear. Abusive behaviour has no place in Scottish football. Hooligans can deny their prejudice as much as they want, but there's nothing casual about going from 90 minutes of bigotry to a 10 year ban.

We can all play a part in tackling abusive behaviour. We can all examine our own behaviour and challenge the attitudes and behaviour of others, and we can all exert peer pressure on those who bring our clubs into disrepute. Together we can ensure that the vile behaviour of the minority doesn't spoil the season for the rest of us. I wish you and your club all the best for the new season and know that you can be counted on to do your bit for the reputation of our national game and our country.

CATHY JAMIESON

Minister for Justice

FOOTBALL BANNING ORDERS (FBOs): YOUR QUESTIONS ANSWERED

The following question and answer section will help you to understand how Football Banning Orders in Scotland will apply:

When will FBOs come into force?

Football Banning Orders are part of Police, Public Order and Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2006 and come into force on 1 September 2006.

Why do we need FBOs?

Abusive football hooliganism is still a lingering menace in Scotland. FBO's will help to tackle the small but hard core element who continue to cause trouble at football matches and other places where fans gather by excluding them from these places.

What football matches can you be excluded from?

Abusive behaviour could lead to you being banned from every senior club in the UK and any game involving the national teams, even those played abroad.

Why can you be banned from other places and not just football grounds?

Not all football related trouble happens in or around football stadiums. There are many other flashpoints where trouble can erupt on match days, such as bars which are popular with fans, town centres or railway stations.

How will FBOs work?

There are two ways. A court can impose a FBO on an individual convicted of an offence instead of, or in addition to, any sentence the court could impose for the offence. Also the police can make a summary application to a sheriff court for a FBO to be imposed against an individual.

Who will administer FBOs?

The Football Banning Orders Unit will administer FBO's for the whole of Scotland. By working closely with all of the police forces in Scotland and across the UK they will ensure that hooligans are identified, arrested and prosecuted. They will also ensure that FBO's are rigorously enforced and information shared. Anyone who fails to comply with the terms of their FBO or commits an offence can be fined and imprisoned for up to 6 months.

How long will a FBO last?

Between 3 and 10 years, depending on the circumstances of the case.

Do FBO's apply to sectarian chanting?

Yes, this is a unique feature of Scottish FBO's.

What can I do?

If you see trouble or know of an individual who has previously caused or been involved in violence or disorder, and you think that they may continue to pose a threat, you should report the matter to the police

remember - this can affect you too.  A St Mirren fan was thrown out the other week for sarcasitically cheering Kenny Miller missing a sitter.  After 1st September, depending on which steward/policeman is standing next to you and their interpretation of things it could result in you receiving a banning order.

to me this is a shocking development in the world of football :010:

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

[RiG]

I'll stop shouting and swearing when they get to the OF to stop singing their filth at games  :003:

[maimie]

not the attitude RIG - it will make no difference to the Exec who does what..

[RiG]

Strikes me as being grossly unfair though. If someone as you say sarcastically cheers a player missing they'll be thrown out. However they are quite happy to let Celtic and Rangers sing their bigoted filth for 90 minutes and do nothing.

[maimie]

Strikes me as being grossly unfair though. If someone as you say sarcastically cheers a player missing they'll be thrown out. However they are quite happy to let Celtic and Rangers sing their bigoted filth for 90 minutes and do nothing.

unfortunately that is what we are faced with in this day and age.

and remember this will affect Scotland fan too..

i also think that they will, rightly or wrongly, find their way of dealing with the OF.

there are many clubs in Italy and Spain, Germany and Holland and the rest that are just as bad as the terrible twins and i know that folk will say but they're not in scotland but at the end of the day if they are doing this it needs to be equitable across football wherever.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - once they take the tribalism of whatever kind out of football the game will slowly die.

[caley100]

Giving this power to some of the stewards that attend some of our games is very feckin scary  :010:

[Heilandee]

Have to disagree folks, dinnae think the issueing of these FBO's will be anything to do with stewards or even the police unless the person is involved in arrestable behaviour, but with the courts.  I'd assume pretty serious misbehaviour to result in the court appearance initially before these are considered and if it removes some of the neandrathals form the football scene , so much the better.

[CaleyD]

Another half baked idea which will do little or nothing to solve the problem.  Police, Stewards and even those running the game (SPL, SFA, FIFA, UEFA) are turning a blind eye to the worst of the issues at the moment and until such time as they start taking action then most offenders will never be brought up on charges for their behaviour or receive FBO's.

All that seems to be happening is that the responsibility is being shunted from one authority to another with little or nothing being done.  If you want to kill a weed it does no good pulling off a few leaves, you have to get right down to the roots and kill it there.  Until such time as the clubs are held proparly accountable for the actions of their own fans then the problem will continue to grow.

IMO, these FBO's are just another way of paying lip service to the problem, another government department being set up to drain public money whilst they sit around all day doing feck all.

[Charles Bannerman]

"With me I have Kathy Jamieson, the MSP for Heid-the-Ba-Jimmy-Ah'm-a Shopaholic West.... Mrs Jamieson, what exactly is the Executive's stance on Football Banning Orders?"

"Y'orright Bernard son? Ah'm just oot o' Primark and ah'm aff tae Lidls now tae get ma man somethin' fur his tea..... but see yon Susan Deacon wan....."

[maimie]

Have to disagree folks, dinnae think the issueing of these FBO's will be anything to do with stewards or even the police unless the person is involved in arrestable behaviour, but with the courts.  I'd assume pretty serious misbehaviour to result in the court appearance initially before these are considered and if it removes some of the neandrathals form the football scene , so much the better.

That's true Heilandee but who brings it to the attention of the courts in the first place??

[Heilandee]

Aye, but thats what i,m saying Maime,behaviour would have to be bad enough to merit court appearance initially,no just a bit drunk/loud/sweary (eh'd have been banned years ago  :015:)

Anyways, hows things through in the bedroom? all still working fine i trust?  :004:

[maimie]

you did such a good job last time i've been trying to think of a way to get you there again :001:!

Saw the lovely Billy S last week as we passed like ships in Perth...

[ictchris]

I am sure that the police will use these orders sensibly.  It would take far too much time and money to prosecute everyone who gives an opposition player the bird at games.

Hopefully the nutsacks who arrange violence at games and hurl sectarian abuse will be banned.  So bye bye Boab Malcolm.

[CaleyD]

The problem does not lie in the laws/systems in place to deal with troublemakers etc.  The problem is the fact that existing laws/rules/regulations are not being enforced properly.  You can introduce a 1001 ways to deal with these idiots but unless the authorities take proper action against the proper people then nothing will change.

Police and Stewards will continue to take the soft option in deciding who to huckle out of grounds as they don't have the support or the balls to get in about a sea of bile spouting OF fans to remove them en masse.  I realise the problems do not exist only with OF fans.  They can cry victimisation all they like, but that is the largest problem area and that is where efforts need to be concentrated initially to send out the message to everyone.

If they are going to be spending money on dealing with the problem, I would far rather it was spent on a task force to support police/stewards in dealing with hot spots, than pen pushers who have probably never attended a match in their puff.

[Exiled ICT]

Do FBO's apply to sectarian chanting?

Yes, this is a unique feature of Scottish FBO's.

Aye right!

[Scotty]

I am sure that the police will use these orders sensibly.  It would take far too much time and money to prosecute everyone who gives an opposition player the bird at games.

Am I alone in being worried that over-officious stewarding could result in 'innocent' parties being wrongfully accused and perhaps receiving some form of FBO ?

We have to watch the use of these new powers closely and I would hope that the club, the stewards, and the police make sure that this is applied consistently across the board otherwise the word 'victimisation' is going to be cropping up a lot in the future.

[Harry Chibber]

Am I alone in being worried that over-officious stewarding could result in 'innocent' parties being wrongfully accused and perhaps receiving some form of FBO ?

No!!

[Alex MacLeod]

At the end of the day only a sheriff can impose an FBO which means appearing in front of him or her. Only if you commit an offence are you likely to appear in front of the sheriff and if you do you have as much rights as any other citizen. i.e innocent till proven guilty.

And remember, if you dont want to do the time, dont do the crime.

[absent friend]

Well Alex, if it is a crime to call Lennon a numpty, it is time we all gave up supporting football!

A large part of the enjoyment of being  at a match is cheering the mistakes of the opposition, whither it be missed goals or a missed placed pass.

As someone has already stated above, the downward supporting slope is upon us thanks to some ill-advised civil servant.

However now for the blind eye(or is it ear) syndrome.

I am amazed that Celtic, at Inverness, sang their bigoted songs to annoy the Rangers fans as I am sure, we, up here, do not give a tinkers cuss what 'school' you went to.

Last Saturday, at Aberdeen, the same behavior was in evidence.

The only way that Celtic can have this song heard by Rangers fans is over the TV transmission mics and the powers that be can't hear it??  Aye, Right!!

[Alex MacLeod]

Calling Lennon a numpty could never be interpretated as being rascist or bigotted, nor could it be interpretated as showing a degree of abuse towards the player so there's probably little risk of being prosecuted. Call him anything that may refer to his race, colour or creed and thats a whole different ball game, and one that I would not defend. And nowadays, even referring to our neighbours across the bridge as gypo's, because the Gypsy Traveller community has won the recognition of being a race of people, could get people into serious trouble with the law no matter how innocent or funny it may seem to the individual. The whole idea is to try and stamp out the rascism and bigotry that comes from the terracings.

If the song you refer to is 'Fields of Athenry' then it has been challenged and found not have anything to do with bigotry. The words don't display hatred or malice towards anyone of another race, colour or creed but is about the deportation of wrongdoers, that happened all over Britian and Ireland, at the end of the 19th century. Indeed the song has been adopted by teams in the English leagues, as well as the tune being used by Rangers fans, and is becoming as much a football song as 'Never Walk Alone'.

I do agree though that songs of hatred need to be stamped out but how do you do it. If 2500 OF fans, at ICT stadium, start singing offensive songs, how should the police handle this. The risk of hostility needs to be assessed to ensure the safety of the innocent. I have no doubt that the songs of hate are mentioned in the match commanders reports, which are submitted to the relevant authorities, but like anything else it takes time for actions to come about.

[Scotty]

If 2500 OF fans, at ICT stadium, start singing offensive songs, how should the police handle this. 

Thats exactly my point. Whether it is 2 fans or 2500 fans there needs to be consistency, otherwise the spectre of 'victimisation' rears its ugly head. Whether it is 2 or 2500 you have to treat the people the same even if you have to handle the actual logistics differently.

Dont get me wrong, I am not saying that what we do (or dont do) to 'groups' should dictate that individuals get away with racist or offensive behaviour, but if you are going to single out individuals who are misbehaving then you cannot suddenly look the other way when groups of people start singing sectarian songs and then claim its the same treatment for all.

[Alex MacLeod]

I agree totally Scotty and thats where the authorities, i.e SPL, SFA etc. have to be seen to be acting and if that means sanctions on the relevant clubs then so be it. I would not, however, want to see the police attempt to act against a large group of perpetrators because I fear this would see a return to the days of violence. The hooligan element would use this as an excuse to goad the police into action and that would then be detrimental to the game.

What I would suggest is that if the match commander reports the offending fans then the authorities act by, perhaps, removing any points gained by that team in the game and awarding the match to the opposition team. Clubs would then take note and play more than lip service to the problem.

[maimie]

the songs sung at Caley Park (and at Todders) as I'm sure Absent Friend can confirm are nothing to do with Fields Alex but are of the slightly more sinister variety which seems to sneak into the away repertoire of certain supports.  This is a slightly separate issue to the FBOs.

Remember:

From 1st September 2006 anyone causing trouble, being abusive, violent or bigoted can be banned from going to matches in Scotland, the rest of UK, and overseas for up to 10 years.

The issue here is interpretation of what is abusive and the Lemon could quite easily say that he took offence at being called a numpty...  It is also WHO'S interpretation of the issue that is the problem.  What you might see as abusive may just be the 'craic' to someone else.

For example - and I'm taking no sides here... - the boys getting thrown out of Tynie the other week.  The actions of one could, in my opinion, be interpreted by some as abusive or offensive and could have led to a banning order.  Now, folk might sit there reading this and think 'that's daft (or words to that effect)' but as i said in my first post it is actually a possibility.  Folk have been thrown out of grounds for it as happened there.  Now that these powers have been given they, again in my opinion, will have to be seen to be used. 

I think the wording of the FBOs has not been too carefully thought out and could result in people being prosecuted without much thought and it will then be up to the PF to decide whether to take it further or to a sheriff to make a reasoned judgement.

Football is, as Absent Friend pointed out, will certainly lose something when the powers that be - who have never probably stood on a terrace in their lives - start meddling in it.

If 2500 OF fans, at ICT stadium, start singing offensive songs, how should the police handle this

They will handle this in they way they are handling it at other grounds round the country at present.  They will target an individual whether they are taking part or not and they will be made an example of.  We have already seen this at our ground.  And there is no point in proclaiming your innocence....

I'm sorry if this sounds a bit negative but it is!!

And it is something we ALL need to be aware of.

[Scotty]

As it relates to our own club, I would like to see a situation where the supporters trust liaise closely with club officials to ensure fair treatment for all. This would protect the club from accusations of persecution/victimisation and also protect fans from being treated differently depending on who they are or where they sit.

What happens at other clubs/grounds should be of no consequence to us until we establish our own procedures and standards within the framework of the current laws of the land (people in glasshouses... etc). If we do not ensure this law is used only when necessary or when an actual offence has taken place we will drive even more fans away from Scottish football and a club of our size cannot afford to do that.

This is not a call to ignore the law, but a plea for it to be used consistently and fairly.

We have all heard of instances - reported on this site when it was still official - where individual supporters have felt victimised by certain stewards, or been on the wrong end of over-officious treatment. We have also heard that individuals in other areas of the ground have got away with things that on the face of it seem far worse just because of the differing interpretations of laws or 'rules', what is (or is not) seen as acceptable by different stewards, or simply - in the case of certain groups of away supporters - because there are too many of them for the stewards to cause a fuss. When things are dealt with in so many different ways there is no way anyone can claim that there is any consistency in applying them and unfortunately this leaves the door open for wrongdoers to justify their behaviour by saying 'but he/she got away with it'.

I was very vocal when I heard of the treatment one of my friends received late last year, especially as I knew that the accusations being levelled at him were complete tripe. However, no-one came out of this smelling of roses - the fan was upset, disillusioned and embarrassed, the club had no official process in place for dealing with complaints of this nature and were accused of ignoring eye witness reports and condoning a well documented case of victimisation, and the stewarding company and steward involved had numerous accusations fired at them too.

If a situation is cut and dried then I have no issue with the offending supporters being dealt with in a manner that is appropriate to the level of their 'offence', but in a situation like this, where there were claims and counter-claims made by all sides, it was a no-win situation and I feel that it would have worked out far more amicably and looked way more professional if there was a procedure in place for dealing with incidents that were disputed. With this new law, there is the potential for a lot more incidents that will be disputed as - in my opinion - when you give 'untrained' members of the public extra powers, those powers will inevitably be abused in the end (by some).

My own feelings are that an official body such as the Supporters Trust should work with the Club to try and implement some sort of 'review board' that could investigate situations that were not 'cut and dried' and ensure they are dealt with fairly. The supporters trust amongst all its other functions is essentially a pivot point where both the fans and the club can go to discuss things that are for the benefit of all or where either side can raise concerns that need to be passed to or discussed with the other.

The website also has a role to play but only as a conduit or information source.

Because of the nature of this or any other website and the large scale anonymity that a lot of members prefer, there is no way we can claim to represent the views of large numbers of fans ... instead, we aim to provide a platform where individual fans can give their opinions, discuss issues relating to the club, or highlight their experiences.

discuss ......... ?