The Silence is Deafening

[absent friend]

I am so surprised at the lack of criticism of the defense on Saturday.

Our young defender makes a bo-bo, we lose a goal, we lose the game, little fuss on here.

If Mcguire was the culprit, the board would be humming with calls for his head.

It would appear some players can do no wrong and some players can do little right, according to the posters.

To put an inexperienced defender up against Wilkie & Co was a wrong decision but that is easy to say in hindsight. However, as a seasoned pro, I feel sure Mcguire would have managed to grab Wilkie by the goolies, ankles, bellybutton or somewhere to provide some degree of resistance for his goal, although I do accept that he is a big guy and outjumping him would be difficult.

[Yngwie]

Yes he could have done better, and hopefully he'll learn that he can't switch off even for half a second.

A few of the goals we have conceded this season have been gifts, but at least that one came from good attacking play: great cross whipped in, unstoppable header right into the corner.

[davieB]

I thought both our central defenders were rubbish on Saturday. The number of free headers United had in the box was worrying. Every set piece was a worry.

I'm certainly not McGuires biggest fan, but he's looked pretty decent in the last few games, and at this moment in time I'd say he's the best option.

While Duff certainly looks like he's got potential, I don't think he's ready for it yet. There's only so many mistakes you can cover with 'Aye, but he's young etc etc' line.

[KingBeastie]

The combination of Duff and McGuire seemed to be working well for us.

Question: Have we kept a clean sheet this season while Munro has started?

[SMEE]

While Duff certainly looks like he's got potential, I don't think he's ready for it yet. There's only so many mistakes you can cover with 'Aye, but he's young etc etc' line.

I agree, but would rather get the mistakes out of the system now so he can develop and hopefully flourish. By all accounts, apart from the few mistakes he has made costing goals (yes, I know!), he has adapted well.

[caley100]

It was mentioned on the matchday thread that Duff that he was at fault for the first goal, and indeed was out jumped by the big lunk Wilkie, both of these situations were probably down to inexperience, but whether Mcguire would have done better is anybodys guess.

Duff seems to have at least one mistake a game, which has cost us the points in all three of them and at this level and situation for ICT, is unacceptable.

The guy is a good footballer and will have a future but he is on a steep learing curve, i hope Brew gets experienced defender in january and puts Duff on loan to sharpen up with first team football as it seems that Mcguire and Granty are the first choices.

[DALNEIGHCALEY]

Do you think Brew will be back in for Dodds in January?

[Guest WynessLegend]

I thought we played well in an entertaining game against an on-form Dundee United side.

Sure, we made a couple of mistakes over the 90 minutes. What team doesn't.

The silence maybe signifies the fact that, with no league fixtures this coming weekend, there is little to talk about.

Relax.

[CaleyD]

Fans expect certain things from certain players. We know what each is capable of when on form and how the can be when form dips.

For that reason I think players such as Duff, Vigurs, Imrie etc who are young guys or guys making the step up get cut a little more slack as we all realise that they aren't (yet) the "finished article" and we've perhaps not seen the best and worst of them.

I'd also say that I far rather a situation where we (the fans) were being a little patient as opposed to the type of dogs abuse which was dealt to Rory from day one and has, IMO, all but destroyed his confidence....and as a result we may never see/get the best from him in the first team.

[Alex MacLeod]

I agree with CD.

Duff is 18. McGuire 28. 10 yrs more experience. Dont think he was fully fit to start on sat, hence the reason he was dropped. Grant IMO is not fully match fit yet but getting there.

The problem is not that a defender makes a mistake, its that we haven't got the backline settled enough to be able to cover that mistake. Proctors likely to be out for a while and I dont see anyone, other than maybe McBain, who can slot in at the back. We definitely need another one or two experienced defenders.

Duff will make mistakes, just like the more experienced guys, but if he learns from them then I dont see a reason to get on his back. We're ICT, not Rangers or Celtic.

Do you think Brew will be back in for Dodds in January? Which Dodds would that be? I wasn't aware he'd been in for any. If you mean Dods then the answer is no. There's no way he's going to come back to us for half of what he earns at DU, especially when they are pushing hard, and have the ability, for a european place.

[Joonya]

Surprising you point out duff when for the first goal Hastings was sitting too deep to pick up the player who crossed (cant remember who it was)

Agree with CD and AM. The youngsters need time to make errors and learn from them. I dont feel they will get this by being put in the reserves or sent out on loan to a lower league club. They need time to gel with the other members of the squad and take in all the experience we already have on the park (hastings, rosscoe, bazza and roy)

Brewster is still making mistakes, but he is certainly learning from them by making better (if not perfect) tactical substitutions, and also putting out a starting 11 that on paper could potentially match, if not beat our opposition.

[Bush]

Dont think he was fully fit to start on sat, hence the reason he was dropped.

If I recall correctly (from Radio Scotland's Sportsound programme) Macguire's wife gave birth a day or two before and he had some time off. I suspect he'll be back in the team for the Celtic game, although I also agree that it's important for all of the younger players to get proper first team experience. It's the only way they'll improve and hopefully fulfill the potential that they've shown so far.

As may have been said already, because Duff plays in defence a slight misjudgement / error can have more significant ramifications (like conceding a goal) than if he plays in midfield/attack.

The "silence" is definitely down to the fact the we all accept that some mistakes are part of his learning process.

[gordyfromsneck]

Surprising you point out duff when for the first goal Hastings was sitting too deep to pick up the player who crossed (cant remember who it was)

Yes, indeedy, Jnr/Snr, to these tired eyes focussing blearily on the BBC website it seemed that Hastings was waaay out of position, hence a rather panic stricken run back to launch a tackle that would have been too late anyway.

But generally, we should be kinder, the goal was good, no-one is going to outjump Wilkie and it really is pretty much a no-blame game. The question is...can we take that???

[KingBeastie]

Out of curiosity, does anybody know if we have kept a clean sheet while Munro has played?

Who has been our 2 central defenders when we have kept a clean sheet?

[Hiro]

Out of curiosity, does anybody know if we have kept a clean sheet while Munro has played?

Who has been our 2 central defenders when we have kept a clean sheet?

Our only clean sheet was kept when Granty was playing. Opening day of the season at Aberdeen. Our two best performances this season have been v Aberdeen and Kilmarnock - The only games where Granty, McGuire have played together with Duncan protecting them.

[KingBeastie]

Blimey - we've only kept 1 clean sheet this season. For some reason I thought we'd had more than that.

[kencar]

We've kept 9 clean sheets in the 48 games since Brewster returned (3 were against Gretna)

Of those 48 games we have......

Won 20

Lost 23

Drawn 5

5 of the wins were against Gretna and another 3 were lower league opposition in the cups

So in 40 games against SPL side the record reads....

Won 12

Lost 23

Drawn 5

(I'm bored at work and this was just a quick tally so there may well be errors!)

Edited October 7, 2008 by kencar

[Yngwie]

You can't just dismiss our wins against Gretna. We may have thrashed them regularly but plenty of other teams didn't. They were an SPL side who got 23 points off other SPL teams.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Out of curiosity, does anybody know if we have kept a clean sheet while Munro has played?

Who has been our 2 central defenders when we have kept a clean sheet?

Alan Pressley and ?

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

It is interesting that we have not had a surge of posts about the negatives at Tannadice - well done to absent friend as this is a good debate to have. Maguire has been a good defender fer 90-95% of his games. Duff is evidently the popular local replacement. It looks like that experience is the main things that separate them. My feelings are:

Maguire has never, at a gut feeling to me, ever appeared to really gel into this team; Maguire has never really appeared to gel in to any type of partnership with Munro - whatever the reason; Maguire is prone to the odd mistake in every game which has cost us goals and points; Maguire is however experienced and appeared to help Duff through the early games; Maguire is a real threat at attacking set pieces; Depend what you want but Maguire would be a really useful full back and cover fer central defence.

Duff is another local lad come true; He may be as loyal as munro and IMHO has more potential; Munro and Duff may be the local hero dream.

Basically we NEED a really experienced central defender

Comments -

Edited October 7, 2008 by Scotty
edited to remove inappropriate comments.

[tokelyisvictorious]

We should play mcguire over duff for now, and let Duff gain some more experience in the reserves, where he will come up gainst similar-level players anyway.

I have always liked Mcguire, he rarely puts a foot wrong and is always there to boot the ball away. We'd be a worse team without him.