Where did it go wrong?

[ictchris]

I don't think you can pinpoint an exact moment where it all went wrong but I think it's somewhere around 2012.  We got relegated in 2009, maybe slightly unfortunately with a record points total at that time, and then we gave Butcher leeway to rebuild and he did a great job.  He then built more and created the cup winning squad that Yogi inherited, the zenith of the club up to this point.

However, during those years when we had regular SPL football, a manageable financial situation (easily recoverable losses, external investment, cup runs, Europe money, transfer fees, money for managers etc) what investments did we make off the park?  What improvements were made to the infrastructure of the club, both in terms of facilities for the fans and players?  None.  We still train at Fort George as far as I can see, the ground hasn't been touched or improved in years, and is now starting to fall apart.  We don't have any facilities at our ground like a proper bar or decent food or excellent hospitality. 

You can extend this to off the pitch too and this is one reason why I don't entirely blame Morrison and Gardiner for what's happened to the club.  We generally operated OK in the top flight, the losses were coverable when they happened and some years we made money.  However, we didn't do anything to generate off the pitch revenue, something that coudl safeguard the clubs future.  Gardiner and Morrison have taken a lot of stick for the concerts and the battery farm but they've had to do this because there was nothing there before.  We didn't even control the land that the stadium is on, IIRC, and were paying money to another company for it.  Eventually every club of our size gets relegated and we completely failed to plan for that in any sense - on the pitch, financially, from a business standpoint.

If  people remember the summer after we went down it was chaos, we had three different Chairmen, we were releasing players via social media, putting our press releases every day (Twitter account liked porn - statement, Duncan Shearer released by text - statement).  It was clear no-one know what to do and really no-one has known what to do since.

Everything that's happened to the club since stems from that failure.  The Chairman and the CEO are trying to do positive things but failing because they are hamstrung by issues out of their control as well as their own incompetence.  In the meantime the club throws huge money on players and managers, makes massive losses but is at the same time massively penny pinching.  Watching the Montrose game via their stream I recall the Covid season where we had one of the worst streaming offerings in the entire league.  other clubs have kept streaming and probably make a trickle of cash from it but we huffily insisted ours was fine and now don't do it at all.

The only way I can see this improving is if an outside party buys the club and is willing to invest proper money in it, which I can't see happening or the current backers underwrite another few million quid and we finally manage to claw our way out of the situation we are in, we flukily get a managerial appointment spot on.  I can't see either happening to be honest - I fully expect to be relegated and to spend a few years in League One.

[caley100]

46 minutes ago, ictchris said:

I don't think you can pinpoint an exact moment where it all went wrong but I think it's somewhere around 2012.  We got relegated in 2009, maybe slightly unfortunately with a record points total at that time, and then we gave Butcher leeway to rebuild and he did a great job.  He then built more and created the cup winning squad that Yogi inherited, the zenith of the club up to this point.

However, during those years when we had regular SPL football, a manageable financial situation (easily recoverable losses, external investment, cup runs, Europe money, transfer fees, money for managers etc) what investments did we make off the park?  What improvements were made to the infrastructure of the club, both in terms of facilities for the fans and players?  None.  We still train at Fort George as far as I can see, the ground hasn't been touched or improved in years, and is now starting to fall apart.  We don't have any facilities at our ground like a proper bar or decent food or excellent hospitality. 

You can extend this to off the pitch too and this is one reason why I don't entirely blame Morrison and Gardiner for what's happened to the club.  We generally operated OK in the top flight, the losses were coverable when they happened and some years we made money.  However, we didn't do anything to generate off the pitch revenue, something that coudl safeguard the clubs future.  Gardiner and Morrison have taken a lot of stick for the concerts and the battery farm but they've had to do this because there was nothing there before.  We didn't even control the land that the stadium is on, IIRC, and were paying money to another company for it.  Eventually every club of our size gets relegated and we completely failed to plan for that in any sense - on the pitch, financially, from a business standpoint.

If  people remember the summer after we went down it was chaos, we had three different Chairmen, we were releasing players via social media, putting our press releases every day (Twitter account liked porn - statement, Duncan Shearer released by text - statement).  It was clear no-one know what to do and really no-one has known what to do since.

Everything that's happened to the club since stems from that failure.  The Chairman and the CEO are trying to do positive things but failing because they are hamstrung by issues out of their control as well as their own incompetence.  In the meantime the club throws huge money on players and managers, makes massive losses but is at the same time massively penny pinching.  Watching the Montrose game via their stream I recall the Covid season where we had one of the worst streaming offerings in the entire league.  other clubs have kept streaming and probably make a trickle of cash from it but we huffily insisted ours was fine and now don't do it at all.

The only way I can see this improving is if an outside party buys the club and is willing to invest proper money in it, which I can't see happening or the current backers underwrite another few million quid and we finally manage to claw our way out of the situation we are in, we flukily get a managerial appointment spot on.  I can't see either happening to be honest - I fully expect to be relegated and to spend a few years in League One.

This!   Plus don't forget we have a cluster of major shareholders who's ego's prevent them talking to each other, Thus, As you stated very well above Chris we cannot look forward and we have the current board scuttling about trying to raise a few grand here and there to keep us afloat!  sad times. 

[+Fraz]

3 hours ago, ictchris said:

I don't think you can pinpoint an exact moment where it all went wrong but I think it's somewhere around 2012.  We got relegated in 2009, maybe slightly unfortunately with a record points total at that time, and then we gave Butcher leeway to rebuild and he did a great job.  He then built more and created the cup winning squad that Yogi inherited, the zenith of the club up to this point.

However, during those years when we had regular SPL football, a manageable financial situation (easily recoverable losses, external investment, cup runs, Europe money, transfer fees, money for managers etc) what investments did we make off the park?  What improvements were made to the infrastructure of the club, both in terms of facilities for the fans and players?  None.  We still train at Fort George as far as I can see, the ground hasn't been touched or improved in years, and is now starting to fall apart.  We don't have any facilities at our ground like a proper bar or decent food or excellent hospitality. 

You can extend this to off the pitch too and this is one reason why I don't entirely blame Morrison and Gardiner for what's happened to the club.  We generally operated OK in the top flight, the losses were coverable when they happened and some years we made money.  However, we didn't do anything to generate off the pitch revenue, something that coudl safeguard the clubs future.  Gardiner and Morrison have taken a lot of stick for the concerts and the battery farm but they've had to do this because there was nothing there before.  We didn't even control the land that the stadium is on, IIRC, and were paying money to another company for it.  Eventually every club of our size gets relegated and we completely failed to plan for that in any sense - on the pitch, financially, from a business standpoint.

If  people remember the summer after we went down it was chaos, we had three different Chairmen, we were releasing players via social media, putting our press releases every day (Twitter account liked porn - statement, Duncan Shearer released by text - statement).  It was clear no-one know what to do and really no-one has known what to do since.

Everything that's happened to the club since stems from that failure.  The Chairman and the CEO are trying to do positive things but failing because they are hamstrung by issues out of their control as well as their own incompetence.  In the meantime the club throws huge money on players and managers, makes massive losses but is at the same time massively penny pinching.  Watching the Montrose game via their stream I recall the Covid season where we had one of the worst streaming offerings in the entire league.  other clubs have kept streaming and probably make a trickle of cash from it but we huffily insisted ours was fine and now don't do it at all.

The only way I can see this improving is if an outside party buys the club and is willing to invest proper money in it, which I can't see happening or the current backers underwrite another few million quid and we finally manage to claw our way out of the situation we are in, we flukily get a managerial appointment spot on.  I can't see either happening to be honest - I fully expect to be relegated and to spend a few years in League One.

We got rid of the tragic looking portakabin and moved the shop/ticket office into the building! 

Aside from that....

Edited May 9 by Fraz

[STFU]

12 hours ago, ictchris said:

I don't think you can pinpoint an exact moment where it all went wrong but I think it's somewhere around 2012.  We got relegated in 2009, maybe slightly unfortunately with a record points total at that time, and then we gave Butcher leeway to rebuild and he did a great job.  He then built more and created the cup winning squad that Yogi inherited, the zenith of the club up to this point.

However, during those years when we had regular SPL football, a manageable financial situation (easily recoverable losses, external investment, cup runs, Europe money, transfer fees, money for managers etc) what investments did we make off the park?  What improvements were made to the infrastructure of the club, both in terms of facilities for the fans and players?  None.  We still train at Fort George as far as I can see, the ground hasn't been touched or improved in years, and is now starting to fall apart.  We don't have any facilities at our ground like a proper bar or decent food or excellent hospitality. 

You can extend this to off the pitch too and this is one reason why I don't entirely blame Morrison and Gardiner for what's happened to the club.  We generally operated OK in the top flight, the losses were coverable when they happened and some years we made money.  However, we didn't do anything to generate off the pitch revenue, something that coudl safeguard the clubs future.  Gardiner and Morrison have taken a lot of stick for the concerts and the battery farm but they've had to do this because there was nothing there before.  We didn't even control the land that the stadium is on, IIRC, and were paying money to another company for it.  Eventually every club of our size gets relegated and we completely failed to plan for that in any sense - on the pitch, financially, from a business standpoint.

If  people remember the summer after we went down it was chaos, we had three different Chairmen, we were releasing players via social media, putting our press releases every day (Twitter account liked porn - statement, Duncan Shearer released by text - statement).  It was clear no-one know what to do and really no-one has known what to do since.

Everything that's happened to the club since stems from that failure.  The Chairman and the CEO are trying to do positive things but failing because they are hamstrung by issues out of their control as well as their own incompetence.  In the meantime the club throws huge money on players and managers, makes massive losses but is at the same time massively penny pinching.  Watching the Montrose game via their stream I recall the Covid season where we had one of the worst streaming offerings in the entire league.  other clubs have kept streaming and probably make a trickle of cash from it but we huffily insisted ours was fine and now don't do it at all.

The only way I can see this improving is if an outside party buys the club and is willing to invest proper money in it, which I can't see happening or the current backers underwrite another few million quid and we finally manage to claw our way out of the situation we are in, we flukily get a managerial appointment spot on.  I can't see either happening to be honest - I fully expect to be relegated and to spend a few years in League One.

So those who kept the club operating on a fairly firm financial footing and delivered the club's greatest successes are the villains?

Those who thought they could do better and squeezed their predecessors out before delivering the biggest losses the club has ever seen with no plan or means to underwrite the various high risk schemes and who have threatened the very existence of the club are to be pitied for it?

The current regime have talked a lot about how vital it is for us to be playing in the top flight in order to balance the books but have put more focus on chasing various failed off field ventures.  They even managed to totally screw up the concerts which had previously been a huge success for the club.  By trying to chase it all they have failed on every front and brought the club to it's lowest point ever.  We are a mess on the park, financially and are more detached from the fanbase than ever.

[+snorbens_caleyman]

1 hour ago, STFU said:

The current regime have talked a lot about how vital it is for us to be playing in the top flight in order to balance the books but have put more focus on chasing various failed off field ventures.  They even managed to totally screw up the concerts which had previously been a huge success for the club.

The point was that once you are outside of the top flight and don't have a well-connected big name like Butcher, then, certainly in Inverness, football revenue alone is nowhere near enough to get back into the top flight.  So money has to be found elsewhere.

Do you have any constructive ideas for recovery?

[STFU]

2 hours ago, snorbens_caleyman said:

The point was that once you are outside of the top flight and don't have a well-connected big name like Butcher, then, certainly in Inverness, football revenue alone is nowhere near enough to get back into the top flight.  So money has to be found elsewhere.

Do you have any constructive ideas for recovery?

We've managed promotion to the top flight twice before without battery farms and the like.

Since 2017 we have amassed losses in the region of £3 million (not including what is being hidden on the 2022/23 accounts yet to be filed and whatever it is for 2023/24 - it could easily be topping £5 Million in total to date) chasing that for a third time.

If that level of spending can't even keep us comfortably in the Championship then I would constructively suggest that the first thing we need to do is change the leadership.

[bdu98196]

1 hour ago, STFU said:

We've managed promotion to the top flight twice before without battery farms and the like.

Since 2017 we have amassed losses in the region of £3 million (not including what is being hidden on the 2022/23 accounts yet to be filed and whatever it is for 2023/24 - it could easily be topping £5 Million in total to date) chasing that for a third time.

If that level of spending can't even keep us comfortably in the Championship then I would constructively suggest that the first thing we need to do is change the leadership.

With gates of around only 2k fans, we are well behind most clubs in the Championship and even likes of Falkirk or Hamilton - so the level of spend is commensurate with the shortfall in income due to lack of alternate streams (£3m over 5 years is £500k per year so lets get that in perspective in relation to the clubs assets - property, facilities. players). Perhaps its the change in fan expectations and waking up to realise the size of club we are operating at and the premium costs associated with recruitment being outwith the central belt all means we are actually League One sized/structured as such have been punching for many years!!!

[STFU]

[BobbyDazzler]

I have been to 9 home games this season and I didn't think that the attendances were anywhere near the 2k mark. My maths must be bad

[+snorbens_caleyman]

56 minutes ago, STFU said:

So the gate money from home games won't even cover the players' wages. Then there is NI, player insurance, and possibly pension payments. 

Then wages and other costs for manager, coaching staff and all other employees of the club.  Running and maintenance costs for the ground and stadium - everything from the electricity bill to the upkeep of the pitch to the laundry bill.  Contractor & third party costs - security, catering, legal, transport etc.  And possibly the big one - I haven't looked at the accounts recently - servicing debts and loans.

Other sources of income - hospitality, the shop, sponsorship/advertising, TV, cup runs.  Won't come close to meeting these costs.  I have left transfers out because that's simply not an option right now.

So then you are down to directors or other parties putting in money with little expectation of return.  Or finding something else to generate revenue.

Last November, the Chairman of Halifax Town - now in the National League - revealed that it costs £150,000 per month to keep the club going.   Our 2,289 attendees, going to 2 home games in a month, would provide ICT with no more than £80,000 before costs.

 

Halifax - https://www.nonleaguematters.co.uk/forums/threads/cost-of-running-a-step-one-non-league-club.11807/

 

[old caley girl]

2 hours ago, snorbens_caleyman said:

So the gate money from home games won't even cover the players' wages. Then there is NI, player insurance, and possibly pension payments. 

Then wages and other costs for manager, coaching staff and all other employees of the club.  Running and maintenance costs for the ground and stadium - everything from the electricity bill to the upkeep of the pitch to the laundry bill.  Contractor & third party costs - security, catering, legal, transport etc.  And possibly the big one - I haven't looked at the accounts recently - servicing debts and loans.

Other sources of income - hospitality, the shop, sponsorship/advertising, TV, cup runs.  Won't come close to meeting these costs.  I have left transfers out because that's simply not an option right now.

So then you are down to directors or other parties putting in money with little expectation of return.  Or finding something else to generate revenue.

Last November, the Chairman of Halifax Town - now in the National League - revealed that it costs £150,000 per month to keep the club going.   Our 2,289 attendees, going to 2 home games in a month, would provide ICT with no more than £80,000 before costs.

 

Halifax - https://www.nonleaguematters.co.uk/forums/threads/cost-of-running-a-step-one-non-league-club.11807/

 

Which is why it seems all the stranger than our club does not maximise ways to bring in money like similar clubs our size. Hospitality barely runs and is so expensive when it does it only suits corporate. Other clubs do different levels of hospitality to suit all pockets. We didn't even push merchandise at Christmas. 

Partick and Ayr have fantastic bars at the ground with food and both are packed to the rafters. Our sports bar is awful. Poor fare and service. 

They changed the season ticket tiers without explanation scraping the 16-25 bracket. I'm told when this was introduced it was the most popular ticket. Young adults this age are more likely to attend regularly rather than young children who I suspect disappear to other activities and when parents have to pay for them. 

Our SM offering is so sanitised compared to before. Other clubs smaller than us have far better media offering again maximising income. 

Yes go after battery farms, concerts etc. But don't forgot the day to day money which surely all adds up. 

Oh and don't get me started on how top heavy we are on management off field. Hardly needed. Local knowledge for corporate stuff sadly lacking too. 

 

[Yngwie]

8 hours ago, STFU said:

We've managed promotion to the top flight twice before without battery farms and the like.

Worth noting that we made a loss both times, including a record £1m loss in our 2009/10 promotion season. Fortunately the reckless spending paid off that time.

[ictchris]

13 hours ago, STFU said:

So those who kept the club operating on a fairly firm financial footing and delivered the club's greatest successes are the villains?

 

They did some things very well resulting in the success but they didn't put in place anything to make it more sustainable or to deal with future setbacks, to make the club resilient.  People are multi-faceted, they can be successful in some ways and unsuccessful in others.

Another factor that feeds into all the complaints that I see on this thread and elsewhere when discussions on the state of the club are the fact that we don't have a real plan, a leader, a philosophy around the whole club.  The only thing is "we need to get back into the top flight because we can't afford to be in this league".  No-one is taking a long term view, about what sort of club we want to be off the pitch or what sort of team we want to be on it.  

I'm currently watching the Partick v Airdrie play-off game and I think about Airdrie.  They got promoted last year, finished fourth this year.  They have an identity, they have a style of play, a mix of young players released by other clubs or from their own youth team added to some more experienced players - it's reminiscent of the sides we had that got promoted.  They aren't perfect and I think Partick will probably win this game but Airdrie have something that we just don't.  Airdrie built this under Ian Murray, when he left for a bigger job, they had a plan in place that continued but also developed.  What do we have?  The signing and managerial strategy is clearly made pretty much day-to-day.  We apparently used to have a Director of Football, who I would assume had to plan these things.  I would also almost guarantee that Airdrie's wage bill is far lower than ours, their overall budget will be lower too.

Edited May 10 by ictchris

[+Fraz]

3 hours ago, ictchris said:

They did some things very well resulting in the success but they didn't put in place anything to make it more sustainable or to deal with future setbacks, to make the club resilient.  People are multi-faceted, they can be successful in some ways and unsuccessful in others.

Another factor that feeds into all the complaints that I see on this thread and elsewhere when discussions on the state of the club are the fact that we don't have a real plan, a leader, a philosophy around the whole club.  The only thing is "we need to get back into the top flight because we can't afford to be in this league".  No-one is taking a long term view, about what sort of club we want to be off the pitch or what sort of team we want to be on it.  

I'm currently watching the Partick v Airdrie play-off game and I think about Airdrie.  They got promoted last year, finished fourth this year.  They have an identity, they have a style of play, a mix of young players released by other clubs or from their own youth team added to some more experienced players - it's reminiscent of the sides we had that got promoted.  They aren't perfect and I think Partick will probably win this game but Airdrie have something that we just don't.  Airdrie built this under Ian Murray, when he left for a bigger job, they had a plan in place that continued but also developed.  What do we have?  The signing and managerial strategy is clearly made pretty much day-to-day.  We apparently used to have a Director of Football, who I would assume had to plan these things.  I would also almost guarantee that Airdrie's wage bill is far lower than ours, their overall budget will be lower too.

We had a 'Director of Sport' recently. I don't know what other sports we were involved with other than football but he certainly didn't seem to do much of anything other than commentating at Victoria Park every second week and cutting the grass behind the jannies house at the IRA on the pitches we used to play on. 

I totally see where you're coming from around our lack of direction in terms of a long term vision or strategy. We have never done this well. The club rely massively on the ICT Community Trust to try and connect with the wider community and to promote the ICT 'brand' which is backwards imo. 

There have been some other steps that have been positive like now having an ICTWFC Academy linked to the club and my daughters are proud to represent ICT but that doesn't bring in any new paying fans. Plus as OCG has explained there's little extra to offer the current fans and in fact, I feel much less valued as a fan than I've ever in the past. 

Now I see the sports bar is closed for the game tomorrow. We're a bloody strange club.  

[STFU]

One question for those trying to defend or excuse those who've overseen the running of the club the last few years.

Regardless of where it started and who's to blame, do you trust or think that Morrison and Gardiner are capable of digging the club out of the mess it is in right now?

[Satan]

29 minutes ago, STFU said:

One question for those trying to defend or excuse those who've overseen the running of the club the last few years.

Regardless of where it started and who's to blame, who do you trust or think are capable of digging the club out of the mess it is in right now?

FTFY.

[STFU]

1 hour ago, Satan said:

FTFY.

It didn't need fixing as I was deliberately avoiding the 'we can't afford to replace them' or 'well who else is going to do it' merry-go-round which gets in the way of anything happening.

Doing nothing means nothing changes.

[The Mantis]

12 hours ago, ictchris said:

 

I'm currently watching the Partick v Airdrie play-off game and I think about Airdrie.  They got promoted last year, finished fourth this year.  They have an identity, they have a style of play, a mix of young players released by other clubs or from their own youth team added to some more experienced players - it's reminiscent of the sides we had that got promoted.  They aren't perfect and I think Partick will probably win this game but Airdrie have something that we just don't.  Airdrie built this under Ian Murray, when he left for a bigger job, they had a plan in place that continued but also developed.  What do we have?  The signing and managerial strategy is clearly made pretty much day-to-day.  We apparently used to have a Director of Football, who I would assume had to plan these things.  I would also almost guarantee that Airdrie's wage bill is far lower than ours, their overall budget will be lower too.

Could almost have written this myself. Despite a poorer support than us, and playing in a stadium which is probably even more soulless, and pretty much in the domain of the Ugly Sisters, as a newly promoted team they reached the playoffs. Rhys McCabe is an intelligent young manager whose star is on the rise. They have a well-defined style of play where they can pass it out from the back but then when it gets to the midfield, surprise surprise, it doesn't go backwards again and end up with the goalie. As opposed to us where Mark is then forced to kick long and it's now a 50/50, or 20/80 if it's Billy against some 6'5" centre back.
They don't score too many goals but they have probably got more out of Toddy than we ever did, and have a bit of a spark in midfield with players like Frizzell. From the games against us plus watching the Friday games on telly, they're my team of the year in this division. They won a trophy too.

[+Moogthurso]

Where did it all go wrong? 

When a Premier league team in 2012 had the training facilities of a league 1 part time team .

Our injuries and strains are a testament to a club that puts moving the ticket office at the stadium ahead of building a shower at Fort George. 

Why should any player choose caley thistle over any league 1 or championship side today when our record of destroying players careers and legs is there for anyone to see . 

Our league 1 facilities have an inevitable gravity that restricts our youngsters development and our first teams performance. 

 

How many league 1 and championship  teams have worse facilities than caley .

This is why Robertson was so focused on this. 

 

 

 

 

[bdu98196]

19 hours ago, Moogthurso said:

This is why Robertson was so focused on this.

Interesting especially when you consider his cummulative time at roles within the club - manger 2 spells over 5 years and DoF 3 years - by my maths thats almost 8 years which is over a quarter of our existence - so plenty of time to have changed things for the better.

[+Moogthurso]

2 hours ago, bdu98196 said:

Interesting especially when you consider his cummulative time at roles within the club - manger 2 spells over 5 years and DoF 3 years - by my maths thats almost 8 years which is over a quarter of our existence - so plenty of time to have changed things for the better.

If it was the boards priority instead of wasting money on co tract renewals for players managers didn't or need but were fan favourites.  

[bdu98196]

14 hours ago, Moogthurso said:

If it was the boards priority instead of wasting money on co tract renewals for players managers didn't or need but were fan favourites.  

Or having a DoF when a Championship club?

[buckett]

I blame the stand-side linesman!

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

I find myself more and more comparing ICT with Everton - which may not be a coincidence for evident reasons. Everton in true Dyche style concentrate on tentative defending and much of the play is side to side and backwards. Pinching a one goal win has become the norm. Lack of stimulation and entertainment is also a norm. Survival is the main aim.  Everton have played most of the season with one man up front - often not an actual forward - but that person is usually a 6 footer and the only Plan B is the hoof from Pickford. But when you compare Samuel and McKay to Calvert-Lewin, Beto and Doucoure - well ?!!  Everton also have the options of McNeil and Harrison. Thats why I would love to see Harper playing higher up and Lawal using his pace out wide.