Disillusioned Or Not? (merged)

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

One last thing to add - Scotty points out that we as fans have responsibilities too - I agree in respect of following the team and getting behind them during the matches BUT the one of the main reason that I am dissilusioned is the mere fact that the muppets will not or cannot accept that they have made mistakes / errors in judgement. They think that all they have to do is sweep things under the carpet, put up a wall of silence and hope that todays news will be quickly erased from the memory banks. If they had been more communicative many moons ago they would not have been getting the treatment that they are today.

[absent friend]

1) This is not a wind up - This is truly from the heart - and I am actually not encouraged that many understand where I am coming from 2) I said "feck this forum" because I feel that many stick their heads in the sand and go overboard with the loyalty nonsense.

The reasons I am responding to this is that I feel this Forum is a gold nugget, well run and informative and I would hate for it to be bullied into submission or led down a path to suit certain posters. I have also in an above post, alluded to the negative feel in many posts which create an overall 'we are right in what we say and if you disagree you are sticking your head in the sand' and I feel this post comes into that bracket'

I have always been a "wait and see" man but so much has happened over the last couple of seasons that loyalty and patience is wearing thin. I am not the doomsayer either - I am saying my peice in my usual forthright manner - I feel that I am showing supporters that this club has developed a boundaried "wall of silence" - some honest communication is required to mend the wounds - they are still open but they should be scar tissue.

Yes - lots of things could be happening behind the scenes - both on and off the park - agreed I wouldnt expect to be privy to them all - but I would appreciate, nay expect, a little club like ICT to be more sharing of information etc. with its fans. I would also think far higher of some of the peeple in higher positions if they a) just feckin admitted that they had got things wrong - what things and in what manner do you wish them to admit whatever - centre circle lashing perhaps?? showed that they were learning their lessons - about what and how do they show it?? c) even confronting, challenging or asking us for the answers - you feel the fans can now do the job better than them?OR d) actually doing something in the public eye that makes us sit up and realise what they are actually doing in the jobs they are being paid for. - For Heavens sake, were we not in the SPL for five years, a wee Highland club, playing in our seated football park for most of that time - some things they got wrong but that is business surely!

From a PR perspective that is dire.

It feels to be that the DFS "rant" in January still rankles as THEY were pushed into a major turnaround. - Do you not think that the turaround was taking place but maybe the fans brought it forward and if we are going down that road, could the fans, if they were that clever, not have made it happen sooner so maybe they are also partially to blame? It feels a bit like they have decided to operate a closed shop in a form of self protection - in some ways an understandable defence mechanism but not in this instance. I take it you are surprised that the 'muppets' don't want to be open with you?

The following is the area, for me, of real concern where our current management team get the negative treatment!

And I even do feel disillusioned by TB - When he came in January he was a breath of fresh air - a war cry - in mny ways he probably saved a lot of peeple from an axing - He is the PR guru - where is he ? It is my understanding, from other postings that we all know where he is!! Is he silent becos he is busy doing other things ? According to the other posts on here the answer is yes!Is he disillusioned ? Why do you ask that, is this a bit of 'say it often enough and it will be believed'

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Thank gawd fer posters like Empty Minded. :023:

I said - " I said "feck this forum" because I feel that many stick their heads in the sand and go overboard with the loyalty nonsense."

The ersehole said " The following is the area, for me, of real concern where our current management team get the negative treatment! " - perhaps if you werent so tunnel visioned you may think that it was an appeal to Butcher to intervene and my disillusionment is as much in regard to the fact that the management do not have a spokesperson without him.

The defence rests.

[Guest birdog]

So Johndo, what do we do?

The way I see things just now is to let the fallout settle and see what we have, then we can see if lessons have been learned. The SPL was huge unknown step for all involved mistakes were made, by feck were they made but everyone learns from their mistakes. As a psychologist you should know this better than most. I say we need to step back for a while, see what transpires, Brewstergate has only just settled. The pain that all of us, including the board, is still here. Imagine how hurt some egos must have been when we, the fans, showed just how influencial we really are. What needs to be addressed now is how the relationship progresses, perhaps the "i told you so's" need to back down a little and let the "Okay, you might have been rights" say what needs to be said. If the relationship can't be healed then I think there are a few people who should look at Scotty's signature, a quote from a much respected Eddie Thompson. He new what matters in the game. Even if I do hate what he did to ICT when he lured Brewster away.

[CaleyD]

How long are fans willing to play the "let's wait and see" or "give them time" card before they realise that the reactive approach to life is what leads to the problems in the first place?

I'm not asking for public lashings or that anyone fall on their sword.....but is it really too much to expect them to admit that mistakes were made? It seems to me that for the last 4 or 5 years the only time we've ever had the club addressing the fans directly in anything is when they're having a pop at us for not being vocal enough, or not turning up in suitable numbers....or indeed when they're trying to get us to turn up in large numbers because the situation is so dire they start clutching at straws.

The closest I've seen to an apology came from Terry Butcher on the night of the Red and Blue Ball, and he was basically apologising for not managing to pull off the miracle we needed. If he can manage that, then why can't the real decision makers?

As I've said many times, we need to be pulling together and in the same direction, but how can the club expect the fans to pull in any direction when they don't know what that direction is and when there's no space being made on the rope for them to get a hand on and take some of the strain?

Am I disillusioned? If I'm honest, I've probably been a bit disillusioned by the way the club seems to have been run for the last few seasons, but I'm not ready to give up fighting for the things that I feel are right and the things I feel will make this club as strong as it can be.

I don't claim to have all the answers, but I do know that things aren't right the way they are just now....if they were then we wouldn't have so many people making the same criticisms....even those in the "all is rosy" camp have to accept that.

[Scotty]

If I am reading this correctly then ... all we are asking for is that the club try to be a bit more honest and open with things where they havent been in the (recent) past? If they can also admit (from time to time) that mistakes were made, and things didnt go to plan or turn out how they invisioned but will try harder in future that would be the cherry on top?

In return, how will we behave towards them? Will we work with them to pull in the same direction as CaleyD has said? Will we stop making a huge issue out of every small thing and concentrate on legitimate issues? Will we cut them some slack when tough decisions have to be made?

It has to be a two way process and as much as things DO have to improve at the club, we also have to play our own part ... no harm in being vocal when we have to be, but at other times, supportive might be a better option.

Gawd, I cant wait for the season to start so we can talk about matches again !

[Kirishima]

Absolutely, if the club come across as open, genuine and honest, genuine being the key, then yes, i believe many would be satisfied.

But this lack of information, connection, its not just tardiness, its a policy, which is why it gets up peoples noses so much

[KingBeastie]

There is soooo much negativety on this site regarding our club at the moment that I rarely read an entire thread and generally just don't visit this site too much anymore.

Folks, football has changed. It's changed forever and the game in Scotland is still in a very transitional period.

We were relegated and in my mind this is in huge part to Brewsters involvement, there are obviosly other factors - we can blame the board for keeping him too long, for re-appointing him, blame Butcher for playing Mike Fraser in the last few games, etc, etc, etc. These things don't really matter and blame gets us nowhere.

Whichever way you put it we are playing in the first division next season and fans want news on contracts and signings, etc. Let the club get on with it. We are not going to splash the cash like Dundee, and that is IMO a good thing, every team in Scotland that spends too much has always had it eventually backfire on them.

I think one of the major issues that has affected our team in the past few years is consistency. We have not had a manager in place for an entire season in the past 5 seasons. We are club that needs stability. Again we can debate the reasons for this but it doesn't matter.

We are a team at the same level as St.Mirren, St.Johnstone, Dunfermline, Falkirk, etc. We will get promoted to the SPL and we will get relegated, we will get promoted, we will get relegated. We're going to be a yo-yo team but as fans lets not start demanding the unreasonable.

The game is in a state of change and one HUGE advantage and something I thank the board for (there are many changes at board level I'd like to see but that's not relevant) is that we are a solvent club. I don't want to see us spend what we cannot afford, over the next few season I'm sure we'll see some clubs fold for good. Let's be thankful and greatful this is not on the cards for us.

Personally I'm looking forward to the 1st division for a number of reasons and my enthusiasm for ICT and club football got a huge boost when TB was appointed, I think he's the right man to take us forward and believe he will. I'm also more enthusiastic about the first division than the SPL (which if I'm honest surprised me). Players will leave - let them. We'll sign others who want to be at ICT.

When did we turn into continually whining old-firm a-likes?

Bring on the new season, who gives a toss how much money dundee spend. ICT is your club - at least try and enjoy it. When the dust finally settles on the financial issues in Scottish football I'm pretty sure we'll still be in a good shape and in much much better than many clubs bigger and better than us.

(now I'm going for a pint!)

[Johnboy]

I'm not entirely convinced Butcher is the right man to bring us straight back up again, but I'd agree with virtually everything else you've said there...

Good post!

[KingBeastie]

Maybe not but some stability would be welcome.

We'll see I guess.

Besides I never said we'd go straight back up. I certainly hope so though mate!

[CaleyD]

Yeah, we can all just ignore the reasons we've be so inconsistent over the last 5 or so seasons, why we can't hold a manager and why we're losing the best of our players for nothing (or worse). None of that matters, and so what if it continues to happen, we can all just sit here again at the end of next season and decide that we can ignore the problems all over again and look forward to life in the 2nd Division, or worse!!!

[L_G]

I'm not entirely convinced Butcher is the right man to bring us straight back up again, but I'd agree with virtually everything else you've said there...

Good post!

So you have mentioned. I have to say that I totally believe Terry & Maurice are the right people to at least have us challenging next season. Terry's speech at the ball was so passionate, I believe they will give us a fighting chance. I really hope that when he returns to work on Monday we will see some positive press which will hopefully cheer us all up again.

I'm looking forward to many things about next season, but theres 1 or 2 things about the transition I've not been too excited about. So I'm looking forward to having Terry & Maurice back at work and moving on. We've just got to get on with it and support the team we all love.

Not sure why this has been merged as I liked the idea of a slighly more psoitive thread

[KingBeastie]

I haven't read all of this topic so not sure if it should have been merged, but hey.

Caley_D - i never said we should ignore the clubs problems/short-comings, I just feel that a lot of what is posted is just negative for the sake of being negative. There is a LOT I'd like to see change at the club but that wasn't the intentions of my post. (which is why I don't think it should be merged)

[DALNEIGHCALEY]

Yeah, we can all just ignore the reasons we've be so inconsistent over the last 5 or so seasons, why we can't hold a manager and why we're losing the best of our players for nothing (or worse). None of that matters, and so what if it continues to happen, we can all just sit here again at the end of next season and decide that we can ignore the problems all over again and look forward to life in the 2nd Division, or worse!!!

Great post

[stevico1]

Although some have their doubts about Butcher, myself included I am right behind him for the coming season. I believe the problems at the club run a lot deeper that the management on the football side.

[CaleyD]

I don't think people are negative just for the sake of it...not most people anyway, and I also don't think that just because I (or anyone) might choose to be critical of the way certain things are being done (or not being done) that it reflects on the support we give to the team.

As you quite rightly point out, the game has changed...what I can't agree with though is that it has changed for the better, and I certainly don't buy into the idea that it has changed forever and the implication that we just have to lump it.

If you haven't read this whole thread then it's possibly worth doing so. Among what some people call "negativity" (I think it's realism) the fans are just crying out for a bit of recognition and representation. Give us something to support, give us something to get positive about and the chance to buy in to whatever the plan is.

Seriously, what's to be singing about at the moment? What is being offered up to the fans to allow them to play their part? Who's listening and taking on board what is being said? That's where the bulk of the criticism is being focused.

As for merging the threads, I don't think you can so easily separate all the issues and I don't think it's healthy (or necessary) for opposing threads for those labelled "positive" or "negative" (I hate those terms) to post in separately. Sitting in our own little groups blowing smoke up each others butts saying we're doing the right thing is not the answer....that's what's happening at the club and it's what's got us where we are now.

I don't do politics, and I don't like the BS that comes with it. If there's an issue (whether you agree with it or not), you get it out on the table and you deal with it....only then can you move forward.

[Alex MacLeod]

I believe Butcher and co have as good a chance as any other manager in europe of taking us back up, considering the resources we have at the moment.

I fully understand and agree with the sentiments on communication and admitting where things have gone wrong. The club have made a fair few mistakes in the last season. So have the support. Will supporters hold their hands up and admit they could have done more to get behind the team and to boost the bankbook.

As for our current situation, part of me is quite glad we have been relegated. At the moment there is huge uncertainty about the SPL. It is still possible that Setanta could go to the wall and no other monies come into the league in the short term. There are three or four clubs, who went out and spent on long term contracts, very worried about how they will fund thier committments. There's Celtic calling for reducing the SPL to ten, with two up two down, which will make it even harder for most to stay in it. Maybe the SFL should break away completely, invite ten from SPL to join and negotiate better deals for all clubs.

[stevico1]

. Will supporters hold their hands up and admit they could have done more to get behind the team and to boost the bankbook.

Alex how many fans do you think didnt boost the bankbook because they are fed up of the lack of communication from the club, fed up of the way the club fail to improve the matchday experience, fed up as it was obvious to all apart from those upstairs that we were only going one way under Brewsters stewardship

Edited June 19, 2009 by stevico1

[CaleyD]

Will supporters hold their hands up and admit they could have done more to get behind the team and to boost the bankbook.

Oh Please, the fans are THE biggest financial contributor the club and ironically they have the least amount of representation.

Your statement is exactly what I've come to expect from the club where it's always everyone else's fault. Just how much money would we (the fans) have to put in to get some kind of recognition? How much money would it have taken to have sacked Brewster earlier (or not taken him back in the first place)? How much money would it have taken to stop the club doing deals with our best players which saw them able to leave for nothing, or next to nothing? How much money would it have taken to keep us out of the courts with the whole Marius Niculae thing? How much money will it take for them to admit they got some things wrong?

Money is not the answer to everything, and sometimes it's actually better to use your head and not get yourself into situations that are going to cost you a packet in the first place.

If money is needed, then the club need to convince people that whatever they give is not just going to be good money after bad and they also need to stop shafting those who are willing to make an investment.

Individually, the vast majority of fans don't have the kind of cash available that would make any kind of difference, but collectively they could come up with a few quid, not to mention the potential for them to raise funds in any one of 1001 ways. Why is it that the club don't realise that and instead choose to attack the very groups who are trying to bring the fans together in order to achieve some of these objectives?

[Georgeios]

Will supporters hold their hands up and admit they could have done more to get behind the team and to boost the bankbook.

Oh Please, the fans are THE biggest financial contributor the club and ironically they have the least amount of representation.

Your statement is exactly what I've come to expect from the club where it's always everyone else's fault. Just how much money would we (the fans) have to put in to get some kind of recognition? How much money would it have taken to have sacked Brewster earlier (or not taken him back in the first place)? How much money would it have taken to stop the club doing deals with our best players which saw them able to leave for nothing, or next to nothing? How much money would it have taken to keep us out of the courts with the whole Marius Niculae thing? How much money will it take for them to admit they got some things wrong?

Money is not the answer to everything, and sometimes it's actually better to use your head and not get yourself into situations that are going to cost you a packet in the first place.

If money is needed, then the club need to convince people that whatever they give is not just going to be good money after bad and they also need to stop shafting those who are willing to make an investment.

Individually, the vast majority of fans don't have the kind of cash available that would make any kind of difference, but collectively they could come up with a few quid, not to mention the potential for them to raise funds in any one of 1001 ways. Why is it that the club don't realise that and instead choose to attack the very groups who are trying to bring the fans together in order to achieve some of these objectives?

Here here

[Alex MacLeod]

A 3000 gate for a SC QF which, had the vocals and the masses been there, may have got us a win and a bigger cut of prize fund etc. versus 6400 gate against the same team for a relegation battle is the support I refer to.

The every week league support has averaged the same this season as it did in our first full season at TCS but I'll bet there have been more posts on here about negative comments to players and no atmosphere etc. this season then ever before. In fact this is probably the first season ever where the club felt the need to make a public appeal for fans to get behind the team at games.

[Scotty]

In fact this is probably the first season ever where the club felt the need to make a public appeal for fans to get behind the team at games.

nothing to do with the fact we were playing our worst football in more than a decade of course .......

[Johnboy]

A 3000 gate for a SC QF which, had the vocals and the masses been there, may have got us a win and a bigger cut of prize fund etc. versus 6400 gate against the same team for a relegation battle is the support I refer to.

The every week league support has averaged the same this season as it did in our first full season at TCS but I'll bet there have been more posts on here about negative comments to players and no atmosphere etc. this season then ever before. In fact this is probably the first season ever where the club felt the need to make a public appeal for fans to get behind the team at games.

I thought the support at the final league game was magnificent...

Can't see how any more could have been asked of them.

[Alex MacLeod]

A 3000 gate for a SC QF which, had the vocals and the masses been there, may have got us a win and a bigger cut of prize fund etc. versus 6400 gate against the same team for a relegation battle is the support I refer to.

The every week league support has averaged the same this season as it did in our first full season at TCS but I'll bet there have been more posts on here about negative comments to players and no atmosphere etc. this season then ever before. In fact this is probably the first season ever where the club felt the need to make a public appeal for fans to get behind the team at games.

I thought the support at the final league game was magnificent...

Can't see how any more could have been asked of them.

Yep, I agree. Such a shame they couldn't show the same enthusiasm and committment for all other home games bar the filth.

[StockholmSyndrome]

Disillusioned? Yup, but I've been disillusioned since the day the club brought back Brewster. Angry? You bet. I believe a lot of what some people perceive as "negativity" is really anger and frustration; it certainly is in my case. Relegation was avoidable and if certain people had done their jobs properly or taken action when it needed to be taken we would have avoided it. It just seems that the people in charge of the club have kept on repeating the same mistakes over and over during the past few years. We just never ever seem to learn, and this is where it's got us.

It was a real nice club we had once...