SPL Board, Please Stop Chasing Ghosts.....

[CaleyD]

I find it absolutely incredulous that, whilst the arse is falling out of the Scottish game, the SPL Board seem intent on chasing ghosts and pandering to the media frenzy.

All this talk of stripping titles from Rangers FC....who cares. What the SPL Board should be doing is sending a very clear statement that Rangers FC no longer exist and they have effectively been stripped of all titles and that came about by their own hand. The sooner their fans (and the rest of us if we're honest) realise and accept that the better.

It serves no useful purpose for anyone to be referencing Rangers as some kind of ongoing concern. Ok, so the history books will read as they have always done, but they will also record that the club went into liquidation in 2012 and ceased to be.

Leave the HMRC and authorities to deal with the charges placed upon those responsible for the EBT's and more recent non payment of taxes etc. There's nothing for the SPL Board to gain from flogging a corpse....forget about it, move on and use your time (our time) more constructively.

Aside from all that, it is wasted effort to be spending time and resources on that, when what they need to be doing is speaking to TV and Sponsors about the future of the game and how we all work together (with or without the bastard son of Rangers FC) to deliver a better league and better product.

That is how we should be selling ourselves to corporate backers right now....as an organisation that can flourish from all this mess, but only if they are willing to work with us. Let's face it, TV/Media are only in it for the money and sponsors are primarily after the exposure so they have a vested interest in a better, more popular league that has greater reach and greater appeal. It makes no sense for them to strangle the life from Scottish Football, but Scottish Football needs to demonstrate to them that we can turn things around and that means EVERYONE pulling together from the very top of the tree, all the way to the bottom and on every branch in between.

Let us show people that we can, and will, learn from our mistakes, not languish in them and allow them to drag us even further into the mire.

[Yngwie]

So what you're saying is if a team cheats its way to titles, it gets to keep them provided it goes down the newco route?

There's no reason why the SPL shouldn't sort out the current predicament AND take appropriate action to rectify the injustices of the past.

[CaleyD]

That's not what I am saying at all.

Rangers FC (in liquidation) are not whatever the NewCo is now calling themselves, they are separate legal entities and there's nothing that can be done to punish them for the crimes of the OldCo.

If titles are to be stripped, they will be stripped from the OldCo, not the NewCo....the NewCo have no titles to take.

Let's stop fecking around looking at ways to punish a company/club that has nothing to do with the future of the SPL and/or Scottish Football.

Whether or not any NewCo should be allowed into the SPL is an entirely separate argument, IMO. It is not about denying them in order to punish Rangers or any other such thing....it is about denying them because they have done nothing to justify and/or qualify for a position in the countries top league.

It is only when you muddy the waters with talk that OldCo and NewCo are one in the same that you end up chasing your tail and getting caught up in issues and arguments which should not exist and are prevent us from moving forward.

If we really want to punish the OldCo, then that can be done after all the other mess is sorted out.....after all, it's not like they are going anywhere!!!

[+bughtmaster]

Yngwie Rangers no longer exist they died of cheating thats all that matters !

They wont rest peacefully.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Shouldnt this be in the Other Football forum ??

[Yngwie]

If an athlete or cyclist found to be a drug cheat has retired, their records should still be erased.

[CaleyD]

Don't disagree with that, but as I said, there's time for all that to be taken care of once the important stuff is sorted out.

[Gabby]

Tough on this. I think they should be stripped of titles (if found guilty after due process) for 2 reasons:

1. It acts as a deterent in the future.

2. It is part of the healing process. Justice is seen to be done and everyone can move forward from there.

We had a similar situation in Aust a few years ago where a team was found to be cheating the salary cap by asking sponsors and other third parties to make payments to players outside of their contracts. They were operating dual contacts offering extra paymentd not outlined to the governing body (NRL)

They were stripped of the titles they won during the period. From a player and club point of view this is a severe penalty.

As a result I see no reason why the SFA/SPL can't investiage transgressions of the past while planning for the future.

[caleyboy]

Pray tell me what good it will do us if Rangers Fc (in liquidation) are stripped of titles. Waste of time and money chasing this. More like the board devoting their time to deciding if the New Co gets SPL membership!

[Gabby]

See previous post

[CaleyD]

Gabby, we're not talking about stripping titles from an existing club so it makes no difference if it is investigated and punishment issued now or in a few months time.

I find it quite baffling, and more than a little worrying, that people seem to be prioritising the punishment of a dead club ahead of dealing with the problems in hand...problems which could very well spell the end for their own clubs.

Every minute wasted dreaming up ways to punish Rangers FC (in liquidation) is a minute less spent on securing the future of Scottish Football.

[Alex MacLeod]

I'm sure the titles will be stripped from the Oldco. The Newco hasn't got any titles to strip. They dont even know if they have a team of players.

[Gabby]

I understand what you are saying however Green is trying to play a clever game here.

He is trying to claim Rangers history/trophies when talking to fans, but says it is a different club for the purpose of punishment and re-introduction to SPL.

Below is an article worth reading suggesting there is still come confusion around the transfer of history/trophies of rangers to newco (even if they are in Div 3)

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/06/18/why-rangers-can-vote-on-4th-july-and-how-the-spl-and-rangers-are-in-error/

[Alex MacLeod]

This is the sort of article that should be placed in front of all the SPL chairmen

[CaleyD]

Which takes us right back to my opening post.....the SPL should be acting to separate the two issues, not pedalling news and stories which add to the confusion.

The only way to do that is to stop talking about OldCo as anything other than a stain on Scottish Footballs History until everything else is sorted out.

If "Rangers" fans want to buy into Greens stories, then let them....it makes no difference to anyone else what they believe or don't believe.

With regards the article...aside from giving me a wee chuckle (private reasons)...it only serves to highlight my concerns that the SPL Board (not Clubs) are playing a dangerous game of trying to treat OldCo and NewCo as a one in order to leverage them into the SPL.

[crownjaggie]

Agree with Caley D, Rangers are dead and New Co will discover their fate early next month. When they should effectively have to apply for membership of the Scottish League, which has happened a number of times since 1994, when each and every team gaining admittance started in the Third division. Whether the records are amended to expunge the titles won illegally or not, if the New Co do start in Division 3 at least they can expect to win three titles ove the next 3 years.

[Charles Bannerman]

If the New Co do start in Division 3 at least they can expect to win three titles ove the next 3 years.

Not if Ross Jack and Barry Wilson have their way!

[+DoofersDad]

The article posted by Gabby takes some reading but is worth the effort if my understanding is correct.

My reading is that by having the meeting on 4th July the SPL is taking a position that oldco and newco are one and the same but just with different ownership to transfer the SPL share to. If it is the same club then they can also take sanctions against them.

But oldco and newco are not the same club, they are different legal entities and therefore a meeting on a differernt basis should be taking place which would require a vote of 10 clubs rather than 8 to approve the newco SPL entry.

Either way it strikes me as irrelevant. If they were one and the same then appropriate sanctions for the financial history would mean the club should be thrown out of the SPL whilst if it is a newco they do not have the playing history to justify admission. Either way, there is simply no justification for allowing Rangers in. The meeting of 4th July should not be to decide whether Rangers newco get the share, it should be about which other club gets it instead.

What is disappointing here is the silence of other SPL clubs including our own. They should be taking a collective stand and say emphatically that they are all voting "no". That might allow everyone to know where they stand and we can move forward.

This just gets messier and messier. It would not surprise me if Green applies for an injunction to delay the start of the SPL season if the vote goes against him. Were that to happen, would the SFL play its fixtures to include the team which would be in the SPL if it were going ahead? The possible scenarios don't bear thinking about. It is time for a united and decisive stand from the so called leaders of the Scottish game. Kick Rangers oldco into the history books and Rangers new co into division 3 - and do it soon.

[CELTIC1CALEY3]

Sevco 5088 certainly does not sound like a Scottish Premier League Club - see latest fact about their re-birth. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18509619

I must admit I question why the BBC still have the now almost dead Rangers FC showing on their website. They do generally take a while to change things. Their coverage of late has been first class and in terms of fairness, they have updated their site to show Ross County as an SPL team. So hopefully within a day or two they will drop the numbers to 11 obliterating the disgraced entity.

[Oddquine]

What I can't quite understand is why is the SPL share is "owned" by Oldco Rangers and becomes a part of their assets even after liquidation, when they effectively no longer exist as a football club. I can see it being an asset for a football club being sold as a going concern, or even one which has agreed a CVA as long as the club remains in existence, and still has a chance of continuing to fulfill games and of finding a buyer in the close season....but why do they "own" it, given the use of it is not within their sole disposal, is subject to the vote in agreement of the other clubs and in some circ.umstances can be removed from them? Why not just "control" it as long as they fulfill the criteria for SPL membership, and relinquish it immediately when that is not the case?

If that was the situation, there would be no Rangers oldco eligible to vote and muddy the waters...and a newco would have no other option but to start the same way all other brand new Scottish football clubs are obliged to do.

Why is there no automatic mechanism to expel every football club from any league on liquidation? Is that just football, given the way the football economy is going, covering their own backsides in case "there but for the grace of God go I"?

[Alex MacLeod]

Like every other club in SPL Rangers purchased a share in the organisation and paid £1 for it. Just as I cant transfer my ICT shares without permission neither can they.

[Oddquine]

Like every other club in SPL Rangers purchased a share in the organisation and paid £1 for it. Just as I cant transfer my ICT shares without permission neither can they.

My point is that given no club can 100% expect to be in the SPL for ever...not even the OF, as has been proven....so why oblige them to buy the share at all.......why not just allocate it to the clubs as long as they are eligible to compete in the SPL for voting purposes? When no longer eligible, due to relegation or liquidation or whatever, the right to the share automatically dies so it isn't an asset, removes voting rights and gives those rights back to the SPL to reallocate. Can't see that the sale of the share makes the SPL big bucks anyway......can you?

I'd guess that it is a different matter owning ICT shares.......because they are yours, unless there is something in ICT rules and regulations which say that not only can you not sell them without permission, but that they can also take them from you and give them to somebody else on a vote of the board. I'd have thought the ICT rule wasn't aimed at the small shareholder, but the shareholder with an appreciable number of shares, who could, by selling up, mean the club gets taken over, or an unwelcome A.N.Other gets too much of a say.

[CaleyD]

When sport becomes a business and sporting values clash with business values, then these are the problems that arise.

[Gabby]

What I can't quite understand is why is the SPL share is "owned" by Oldco Rangers and becomes a part of their assets even after liquidation, when they effectively no longer exist as a football club. I can see it being an asset for a football club being sold as a going concern, or even one which has agreed a CVA as long as the club remains in existence, and still has a chance of continuing to fulfill games and of finding a buyer in the close season....but why do they "own" it, given the use of it is not within their sole disposal, is subject to the vote in agreement of the other clubs and in some circ.umstances can be removed from them? Why not just "control" it as long as they fulfill the criteria for SPL membership, and relinquish it immediately when that is not the case?

If that was the situation, there would be no Rangers oldco eligible to vote and muddy the waters...and a newco would have no other option but to start the same way all other brand new Scottish football clubs are obliged to do.

Why is there no automatic mechanism to expel every football club from any league on liquidation? Is that just football, given the way the football economy is going, covering their own backsides in case "there but for the grace of God go I"?

It is because the SPL share cannot be sold as an asset without the approval of the SPL. So oldco has the players and the SPL share but no ground to play at and newco has a ground to play at with no membership to a league or players.

It is also important to remember that Rangers aren't liquidated yet - this is still a few weeks away - technically they are still in administration so therefore the SPL share is theirs and they get to vote on admitting newco despite the massive conflict of interest.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Like every other club in SPL Rangers purchased a share in the organisation and paid £1 for it. Just as I cant transfer my ICT shares without permission neither can they.

My point is that given no club can 100% expect to be in the SPL for ever...not even the OF, as has been proven....so why oblige them to buy the share at all.......why not just allocate it to the clubs as long as they are eligible to compete in the SPL for voting purposes? When no longer eligible, due to relegation or liquidation or whatever, the right to the share automatically dies so it isn't an asset, removes voting rights and gives those rights back to the SPL to reallocate. Can't see that the sale of the share makes the SPL big bucks anyway......can you?

I'd guess that it is a different matter owning ICT shares.......because they are yours, unless there is something in ICT rules and regulations which say that not only can you not sell them without permission, but that they can also take them from you and give them to somebody else on a vote of the board. I'd have thought the ICT rule wasn't aimed at the small shareholder, but the shareholder with an appreciable number of shares, who could, by selling up, mean the club gets taken over, or an unwelcome A.N.Other gets too much of a say.

Thank you very much for introducing the term "ICT" to the proceedings. I dont come on here to read about feckin the team formerly known as Rangers. I look forward to celebrating Scottish Football Independence Day on the 4th of July.