Us and Them?

[Renegade]

Have we become a team of us and them? "Us" being the supporters, "Them" being the inside of the club. I feel that over the last few years, the divide between the club and the supporters is breaking further and further apart. As can be seen with the current ticket prices, the sky high prices for sub standard pies and burgers, sometimes which aren't even there to be sold and he way the club seem dis-interested in pursuing Boardroom Banter. Even in the latter, the club seemed to answer questions in a sense of "We know best, you know nothing", whilst also displaying a rather high and mighty attitude.

Look at the way we are treated compared to those in hospitality. Those regular hospitality supporters seem more important to them, than the normal supporters. I believe those on the inside of ICT, seem to look at us as being merely peasants. They don't care for us, whilst they stay nice and warm in their cosy little boxes and eating their top class three course meal. Should any supporters do things that may be against the team, or those on the inside (see the Brewster Out saga), they clamp down like a totalitarian regime. Once again coming out with a "We are right, you are wrong" attitude.

I feel the ICT divide is big now and getting bigger, and something needs to be done so the supporters can feel and be part of the club again. Discuss

[ictchris]

Have we become a team of us and them? "Us" being the supporters, "Them" being the inside of the club. I feel that over the last few years, the divide between the club and the supporters is breaking further and further apart. As can be seen with the current ticket prices, the sky high prices for sub standard pies and burgers, sometimes which aren't even there to be sold and he way the club seem dis-interested in pursuing Boardroom Banter. Even in the latter, the club seemed to answer questions in a sense of "We know best, you know nothing", whilst also displaying a rather high and mighty attitude.

Look at the way we are treated compared to those in hospitality. Those regular hospitality supporters seem more important to them, than the normal supporters. I believe those on the inside of ICT, seem to look at us as being merely peasants. They don't care for us, whilst they stay nice and warm in their cosy little boxes and eating their top class three course meal. Should any supporters do things that may be against the team, or those on the inside (see the Brewster Out saga), they clamp down like a totalitarian regime. Once again coming out with a "We are right, you are wrong" attitude.

I feel the ICT divide is big now and getting bigger, and something needs to be done so the supporters can feel and be part of the club again. Discuss

Yes, I've heard that the Green Movement protesters in Iran and the NorthKoreans swimming across frozen rivers to China often console themselves with the thought that while things are bad for them, at least they aren't Caley Thistle fans - sometimes the burgers sell out!

[tm4tj]

I may be missing something here, but it would appear to be a non story, are you bored and just starting a thread for the hell of it. I thought we had dozens of these threads floating about.

[TopSix]

Pains me to say it, but I think county treat their fans better. At least we're away this weekend

[CaleyD]

I agree with the point your making about divide between club and fans, it's a point I have made myself for many years and one which I probably borne witness/been victim too on more occasions than most.

However you are attacking it on all the wrong points and with inaccurate facts...and that does little to help matters.

[Renegade]

So what are the accurate facts and the correct points then?

[CaleyD]

For a start, it has nothing to do with any "Class Divide" or anyone thinking they are any better than anyone else. You ramble on about pies and hospitality as if they actually matter in the grand scheme of things....and the fact that the club have had little by way of hospitality running this season, having moved to the Kingsmills Club setup instead would blow that argument right out of the water from the get go. Not to mention that the club would argue, quite validly, that they have acted to improve the catering and that it cannot be judged on a single week and that they moved to do this due to the fact the listened to the fans. Aside from anything else, the club would not be where it is, or have lasted as long as it has without the corporate side of things.

Really, when you get right down to it, ICT is well and truly in the doodoo and I'm pretty much of the opinion that it's gone so far the wrong way that it's going to take a major disaster before we get to a point where we can start building again....only one man has the power to stop that happening and I don't hold out much hope of him doing what's necessary.

ICT will be in administration within 12 months....18 at most, and there's not a single thing any of us can do to prevent it. The bank balance has disappeared, debts will be mounting and expenditure is outstripping income on just about every front.

All the nice pies, cheap tickets and pleasant exchange of questions and answers in the world isn't going to bring this club back into line.

So why do these things? Why waste our time pursuing points and changes that will make no difference to my predicted fate?...because we have to show what works, we have to be prepared for when the chit really does hit the fan so we know how best to rebuild.

I've resigned myself to the inevitable, but that doesn't mean I won't stop doing anything I can do to increase the support and to try and keep the support we have. God knows we're going to need every person and every penny we can muster in the not too distant future and fans need to start coming together now because we might be on the brink of losing a battle, but we can and will still win the war if all stick together.

That might all sound very dramatic and a bit theatrical...mock me if you will, but please remember to bookmark the post for future reference.

[TopSix]

For a start, it has nothing to do with any "Class Divide" or anyone thinking they are any better than anyone else. You ramble on about pies and hospitality as if they actually matter in the grand scheme of things....and the fact that the club have had little by way of hospitality running this season, having moved to the Kingsmills Club setup instead would blow that argument right out of the water from the get go. Not to mention that the club would argue, quite validly, that they have acted to improve the catering and that it cannot be judged on a single week and that they moved to do this due to the fact the listened to the fans. Aside from anything else, the club would not be where it is, or have lasted as long as it has without the corporate side of things.

Really, when you get right down to it, ICT is well and truly in the doodoo and I'm pretty much of the opinion that it's gone so far the wrong way that it's going to take a major disaster before we get to a point where we can start building again....only one man has the power to stop that happening and I don't hold out much hope of him doing what's necessary.

ICT will be in administration within 12 months....18 at most, and there's not a single thing any of us can do to prevent it. The bank balance has disappeared, debts will be mounting and expenditure is outstripping income on just about every front.

All the nice pies, cheap tickets and pleasant exchange of questions and answers in the world isn't going to bring this club back into line.

So why do these things? Why waste our time pursuing points and changes that will make no difference to my predicted fate?...because we have to show what works, we have to be prepared for when the chit really does hit the fan so we know how best to rebuild.

I've resigned myself to the inevitable, but that doesn't mean I won't stop doing anything I can do to increase the support and to try and keep the support we have. God knows we're going to need every person and every penny we can muster in the not too distant future and fans need to start coming together now because we might be on the brink of losing a battle, but we can and will still win the war if all stick together.

That might all sound very dramatic and a bit theatrical...mock me if you will, but please remember to bookmark the post for future reference.

So the club's doomed?

[Fanoffooty]

Go away with all your doom & gloom Renegade

Tis the season to be jolly fa la la la la la :025: :drinking08: :icon_santa:

[Renegade]

That might all sound very dramatic and a bit theatrical...mock me if you will, but please remember to bookmark the post for future reference.

Okay, I get your points, but I'm not on here to mock anyone, that's for others to do to me. :(

Go away with all your doom & gloom Renegade

Tis the season to be jolly fa la la la la la :025: :drinking08: :icon_santa:

I know, I know, I should be more merry. I promise to be more optimistic and jolly from now on. :)

[Scarlet Pimple]

Holy Shootalinos!

That's my Christmas well and truly doon the watter.

Well, I remember the Highland League with fondness; if through considerably dimmer eyes than formerly.

My expectations from the team then were miniscule and non -critical. So long as there was a terracing place to stand on. and a hairy fitballer with elbow grease plastered all over his huge calf muscles to follow with the straining eyes to remind me that all the heroes were on the park ,and the fact that we young anes were there solely to pay our 6 pence and cheer every goal as if it was the second coming, then we always went home happy ---reghardless of the result.

The moral of this old ane's story is simple. There always will be a Caley and there always will be a Thistle and THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS.

And if Caley Thistle end up back in the Highland League then it is not the end of the world.

And a happy Christmas to one and all from snowy, freezing British Columbia.

[KingBeastie]

but I'm not on here to mock anyone, that's for others to do to me

Aaawww, you poor wee victimised soul. I'll try and get bob geldof on the phone and see if he'll release another Christmas charity single to aid your plight.

[Kirishima]

Issues with atmosphere

DS vs DJS fiasco

Catering

Singing section

Video

Marius

Savage

Car Parking

Stewards

Standing

Chants

Youth team

Club shop

Strips

Songs

CTO features

All these things could have been responded to. Infact, i would be as bold to say it would have taken an afternoon meeting. However, it is simply the case that the club operates within itself, and has a policy of not interacting with the fans. It's policy.

As Caley D said, next season, next season will see very little income come ICTs way, season tickets will be massively lower than this year, playing squad reduced, administration. And i doubt any fight will be put up by the club. I am resigned to this fact. It's a shame, because with a bit of effort it could be different. However, the apathy of the ICT staff (i exclude the club shop staff- 10 years ago they were great, and still seem to be as good) means we face watching the slow decline. Oh well.

[Morgan Spice]

Administration? This is a bit extreme is it not?

The club is not losing that much money surely. If it is surely players will be getting punted in January and players brought in for a suitable budget.

There is also the variable of the Scottish Cup and depending on how far we progress it could add much needed income.

I don't understand why everyone thinks the problems can be solved overnight. There are changes being made at the club slowly but surely.

This is a vital period for the club. Win the games over Christmas and we are back in the mix of things. There is still a lot to be achieved this season the players are getting better and the consistency is coming.

I'm sorry but I'm not ready to give up on the club just yet. I think things will happen soon enough and either way promoted or not things will be fine.

At the end of the day we are ICT fans and we should be supporting ICT. If things are that bad take action but words are said on here so often and nothing is done.

[Kirishima]

How many season tickets will be sold next year? The same? 90%? I'd say less. Its got to the stage where only the thick and thin supporters will be left. Administration is a reality for all clubs if things dont go well. There is less money in the Scottish game than ever before

[Georgeios]

I'm already budgeting for next years ST, but it all hangs on how things are by then bearing in mind the Clubs promise of a 10% discount and well lets just see how everyone is come buying time, however what ever leauge we are in as long as we are pointing/Pointed in the right Direction, then I'm in.

[tm4tj]

I think I am a thick one.

[Morgan Spice]

There is no way you can predict that season tickets sales will fall next season. If this thread was being posted in 3 months time and things are still the same i.e. we are out of the title race, nothing changes on the non-playing side then I would maybe agree with you.

But the fact is we are halfway through a season and still in with a chance of promotion albeit a slimmer one than we would have hoped. There is still time for a lot to happen at the club in all areas between now and the end of the season.

What about the seasons we spent in the first before how did we survive then? We were never a moneybags club but we still managed. Why would that change now?

Edited December 14, 2009 by Morgan Spice

[Alex MacLeod]

How many season tickets will be sold next year? The same? 90%? I'd say less. Its got to the stage where only the thick and thin supporters will be left. Administration is a reality for all clubs if things dont go well. There is less money in the Scottish game than ever before

So there wont be any fat or brainy supporters.

Before the club could go into administration it would need to be in debt and the debtors would need to demand there money. As yet there is no indication that we are in debt nor is there indication that our debtors are seeking their money so any suggestion of administration is a no no.

[12th Man]

Its a bit early to mention admin

We could discuss if someone wanted to buy ICT and carry on their debt or let the club go bust and wipe out the dept and go back to division3

Or would you want to invest in a club in dept or invest in one starting afresh in div 3

Its way too early to mention the above and not worth wasting the time.

Dunfermiline,Dundee,county and Motherwell- now thats worth discussing .

The way the team are playing just now the future is looking a lot rosier.

[Kirishima]

You are right, MorganSpice. It is far too early to say for sure. However I base my assumptions on the basis that at the start of the season the club were pushing the bounce back up slogan, and fans were looking forward to seeing lots of wins...that hasn't happened. And yes, there is a chance that we may be playing SPL next season, though i think it would be a big turnaround.

I just think that the supporters will be a bit teed off when there is a sudden drive and impetus from the club at season ticket time, when before and after is like a ghost town. That is why, and I don't wish to be correct, i think you will see a fair drop. Is it incorrect to make such assumptions? I don't think the club can expect people to keep the same level of loyalty/spending when they aren't making any efforts to please them

In this day and age of social media, where 76% of the population is online and of that 86% of 15-24 year olds, 89% of 25-34 year olds and 67% of 55 yearolds who are online use social media with user-generated content, it is damned easy to connect with your customer base. The fact is, nothing, and i mean, nothing is done to engage with customers of ICT...until season ticket time.

That will be reflected come season ticket time

[Morgan Spice]

You are right, MorganSpice. It is far too early to say for sure. However I base my assumptions on the basis that at the start of the season the club were pushing the bounce back up slogan, and fans were looking forward to seeing lots of wins...that hasn't happened. And yes, there is a chance that we may be playing SPL next season, though i think it would be a big turnaround.

I just think that the supporters will be a bit teed off when there is a sudden drive and impetus from the club at season ticket time, when before and after is like a ghost town. That is why, and I don't wish to be correct, i think you will see a fair drop. Is it incorrect to make such assumptions? I don't think the club can expect people to keep the same level of loyalty/spending when they aren't making any efforts to please them

In this day and age of social media, where 76% of the population is online and of that 86% of 15-24 year olds, 89% of 25-34 year olds and 67% of 55 yearolds who are online use social media with user-generated content, it is damned easy to connect with your customer base. The fact is, nothing, and i mean, nothing is done to engage with customers of ICT...until season ticket time.

That will be reflected come season ticket time

I completley agree with you that the club has ignored the fans and have only used the media to boost season ticket sales but there are signs of that changing recently. It's just a case of seeing what fresh ideas they can come up with and how long it is before they connect with the fans on a decent level again. I think Darren at the club needs a little bit of credit because he has been doing a lot of work since taking on his new role and there are definate signs of fans issues being taken into account than in the past. Also was the game on Sat not a pound for kids. I may be wrong here but I think the club is starting to try and salvage a relationship with the fans now.

[Scotty]

I have previously used the "Them and Us" terminology but if I am honest, I think it is a lot better now than it was even 6 months ago. Its not back to where it was, and who knows if it will ever be, but it is better than it was.

Kirishima's list is an interesting one and I know that at least some of the headings listed are actively being discussed (Video, Singing Section, Standing etc). I did however want to make a comment on one or two of them where I feel the club are damned if they do and damned if they dont.

• Issues with atmosphere - These have existed since day 1. It is not new and the club have tried on different occasions to help get something going but the fans have to take some culpability on this too. Way back when Debbie was still in charge we tried to get things going on that front with season ticket holders, it was tried again with the west stand and to an extent with the North Stand - the fans who clamoured for it were very conspicuous by their absence in taking up the offers made over the years. Perhaps the famous "Highland Reserve" has something to do with it. If the club does have some blame on this it is in applying some of the rules imposed by the SPL too vigorously. They could have been more lenient in turning a blind eye to some standing and chanting etc. However, fans can also go too far on this and the episode where fans in the west stand were ejected and others tried to rush the stewards shows this. I believe the Trust is trying to work with the club to try and improve this and the whole atmosphere/songs/chants/standing headings posted kind of run into one another.
  
• Catering - Again, this has been an issue for years and one that should have been addressed long before now. Darren is trying to address it now and although last week didnt sound like much of a success, the phrase that goes through my head is that "Rome wasnt built in a day" ... give the new guys a fair crack and if it doesnt improve then bitch and moan about it.
  
• Car Parking - Has always been an issue going back to the days when the stadium was first built. Part of the problem though is the drivers themselves and the fact that the police will not let you turn towards the A9 from the home car park. Perhaps it is time we stopped looking solely at the car park and broadened the scope. Maybe it is time that the police consider running a 20-30 minute rolling road closure of traffic approaching the stadium from the various routes and allow traffic priority to exit onto the A9 north/south, into the town via the dual carraigeway and into the town under the Kessock bridge. If the arterial routes are actually flowing then the traffic in the car park will also flow.
  

For me, the three issues that frustrated me over the last while were these ones ....

DS vs DJS fiasco - This should never have happened and did more to damage the reputation of our major shareholder in the last 6-7 years than anything else IMHO.

Marius - I have posted my opinion on this in great detail elsewhere so nothing much to add here other than .... utter farce, draw a line under it, explanation required for shareholders & fans.

Savage - A very broad topic but my disappointment here is that I thought that Sutherland/Savage could be a great link-up for ICT. Sutherland's prudence and steadying hands along with Savage's ideas to grow the club. It would inevitably lead to some heated debate in the boardroom but instead of discussing things it appears that each went the other way and we have ended up with a battle between them and ICT (and Clach) and their fans as the victims.

I dont subscribe to the "in administration within a year" sentiment mooted by CaleyD, however, I do see exactly where he is coming from in that one and it is not beyond the realms of possibility. We the fans want to be back in the SPL and we will stop at nothing to tell the powers that be that this is what we expect. The board in turn is spending (or has spent) money that could perhaps be better used to steady the ship elsewhere in trying to do that. You can only spend so much money that you dont have before people sit up and say "wait a minute".

Our season ticket sales may be up from last year but they are cheaper than last year so we have less revenue. Our commercial revenue has got to be down significantly as advertisers who are reluctant to spend money during the credit crunch are even more reluctant to spend the same volume on advertising that is no longer seen on TV, and our payments in the SFL compared to the SPL (even taking account of the parachute payment) are a fraction of what they were. Yet we the fans still demand the same quality from a far smaller pot.

The club are also not blameless in this. They should have drawn a line under the Marius saga long ago, and they should have spoken TO us instead of AT us (or ignored us) for the last few seasons. I would be disappointed if the club came out and had to make negative statements but at the end of the day it is far easier to swallow bad news if it is accompanied by a rationale that you can understand..... "We are not getting SPL revenue and therefore we cannot retain as much of the SPL squad as we want to" is bad news, but most would understand why.

Assuming we dont get promoted this season - and I have not given up, just being realistic that very few teams have ever done it at the first attempt - what we need most over the next few seasons is everyone to work together for the good and benefit of the club.

We need the board and the major shareholders pulling in the same direction, We need the staff pulling in the same direction and we need the fans doing the same. We need to try and break down barriers that have grown over the years. Fans should not criticise everything, but by the same token, the board should not take umbridge if the fans criticise anything ... some criticism is justified and they just need to take it on the chin. We as fans may need to lower our expectations so that they match the revenue the club can generate but by the same token, the club should be making effective use of that revenue and not allowing it to be frittered away on legal cases we cannot win .... its a case of us all making the odd compromise to get back on the same road together. We were a better club - or at least felt like that - when we all pulled together and its the lack of cohesion and direction from the major components of the club that is (or could be) tearing it apart. Lets get egos and one-upmanship out the window and get back to doing whats best for ICT.

[Johnboy]

We need the board and the major shareholders pulling in the same direction, We need the staff pulling in the same direction and we need the fans doing the same. We need to try and break down barriers that have grown over the years. Fans should not criticise everything, but by the same token, the board should not take umbridge if the fans criticise anything ... some criticism is justified and they just need to take it on the chin. We as fans may need to lower our expectations so that they match the revenue the club can generate but by the same token, the club should be making effective use of that revenue and not allowing it to be frittered away on legal cases we cannot win .... its a case of us all making the odd compromise to get back on the same road together. We were a better club - or at least felt like that - when we all pulled together and its the lack of cohesion and direction from the major components of the club that is (or could be) tearing it apart. Lets get egos and one-upmanship out the window and get back to doing whats best for ICT.

If only someone from within the club was capable of coming out with a comment like that.

Excellent post.

[Kirishima]

Yes, i think we are all on the same page (maybe just different paragraphs) with this. The list was just used to underline some of the reasons that why, one way or another, some fans are not as content as they could be, though in saying that, no fan is ever truly happy, and can always do better from their armchair, such as myself.

Darren does have the backing of me, and I dare say most people too. The catering issue is new, and up in the air, and indeed will remain to be seen. I am optimistic about what Darren will do given time.

What I would lile to see is CTO, the Supporters Trust, and ICT working in partnership, within reason given that the Supporters Trust and CTO are volunteers and as was pointed out by CaleyD, cannot be expected to fix things overnight.

So, I guess the bottom line is this: Improved communication is essential to ensure a strong, consistent, healthy operation of the club, now and for the future. It is imperative that there is a much bigger effort made by ICT, which I believ will go a long way to making sure attendance numbers do not drop. My fear is that without this, the effects will be seen at the start of next season, and that there is no time for indecisive action from the club on this. They will reap what they sow, so to speak.

A simple marketing example: There are 20 odd social media outlets such as Facebook, Bebo, MySpace, Twitter, Wordpress, blogspot, Flickr, You Tube, Google GEO, Digg, and many more. Now, im sure most clubs aren't on these, but that doesn't mean it's acceptable. My point here is that the club are well aware that communication is a sorepoint, and it is simple to fix it overnight. So, we will see if they either react in the positive, or in the opposite by doing nothing.

(My Christmas travel plans have been destroyed as of 50 minutes ago via BA Cabin Crew, so apologies for any harshness in tone)

As always, my great thanks to all at CTO who regularly provide an amzing service to fans through their own selflessness. I am not being sycophantic, it is just that it goes unsaid too often.