Ponder this

[Themidgetmaestro]

I've been quite contented to sit on the fence and watch from afar the constant swaying of negative and positive attitudes to ICT and the managerial staff. ICT's rise to the dizzying heights of the SPL surprised many pundits and supporters alike and after FIVE seasons in the Spl Caley thistle finally found themselves walking the plank and plunging back into first division football. Being the SPL club it was all to easy to suggest our quick return to the SPL with the squad we had and what (at the time some people thought) a superb manager. Things haven't turn out like this so far and already some of us are jumping on "The sack Butcher" bandwagon. But stop and ponder some of these interesting facts about the relegation of spl clubs and the fate of their managers.

(I decided to start my research from season 2000-01 as it was when the 12 team SPl league was introduced)

2000-01

St. Mirren(30 points) were relegated and then manager Tom Hendrie lasted one season in the first Division where St. Mirren finished 8th. Tom Hendrie was sacked in September 2002 after a heavy defeat to ICT. Livingston were promoted that season.

2001-02

ST. Johnstone (21) were relegated, Manager Billy Stark lasted 2 years before getting sacked, Partick Thistle were promoted

2002-03

Motherwell (28) were relegated but controversially Falkirk weren't promoted as their stadium didn't match SPL criteria

2003-04

ICT PROMOTED!!!! Partick Thistle (26) relegated Gerry Britton sacked in January 2005 (Caley allowed to groundshare with Aberdeen, much to the disgust of Falkirk)

2004-05

Dundee (33) relegated, Jim Duffy sacked after four games in First Division despite Dundee lying top. Falkirk finally promoted

2005-06

Livingston (18) relegated, JOHN ROBERTSON sacked April 2007, St.Mirren promoted

2006-07

Dunfermline (32) relegated, Stephen Kenny sacked 4th of December 2007, Gretna promoted

2007-08

Gretna (13) relegated, Hamilton promoted

2008-09

OH DEAR! ICT (37) relegated, St. Johnstone promoted

To Summarise:

Shortest length of time returning to the SPL: St. Mirren 5 seasons

Only three teams have ever returned back to the SPL: Falkirk, St. Mirren, St. Johnstone

Three teams have beeen relegated again after dropping from SPL: Partick Thistle, Livingston, Gretna

Shortest Managerial reign after relegation: 4 games Jim Duffy

Longest Managerial reign after relegation: 2 Years Billy Stark

I welcome any feedback good or bad, and any additional information you may have. Some of the information provided may be incorrect so please inform me if you have different info

Edited December 9, 2009 by Themidgetmaestro

[PullMyFinger]

So in 9 seasons, 2 of Terry Butcher's teams have been relegated from the 12 team SPL?

That's shocking!

I agree, sack Butcher now. And whoever appointed him. What a disgrace!

:023:

[Guest Mahonio]

I've been quite contented to sit on the fence and watch from afar the constant swaying of negative and positive attitudes to ICT and the managerial staff. ICT's rise to the dizzying heights of the SPL surprised many pundits and supporters alike and after FIVE seasons in the Spl Caley thistle finally found themselves walking the plank and plunging back into first division football. Being the SPL club it was all to easy to suggest our quick return to the SPL with the squad we had and what (at the time some people thought) a superb manager. Things haven't turn out like this so far and already some of us are jumping on "The sack Butcher" bandwagon. But stop and ponder some of these interesting facts about the relegation of spl clubs and the fate of their managers.

(I decided to start my research from season 2000-01 as it was when the 12 team SPl league was introduced)

2000-01

St. Mirren were relegated and then manager Tom Hendrie lasted one season in the first Division where St. Mirren finished 8th. Tom Hendrie was sacked in September 2002 after a heavy defeat to ICT. Livingston were promoted that season.

2001-02

ST. Johnstone were relegated, Manager Billy Stark lasted 2 years before getting sacked, Partick Thistle were promoted

2002-03

Motherwell were relegated but controversially Falkirk weren't promoted as their stadium didn't match SPL criteria

2003-04

ICT PROMOTED!!!! Partick Thistle relegated Gerry Britton sacked in January 2005 (Caley allowed to groundshare with Aberdeen, much to the disgust of Falkirk)

2004-05

Dundee relegated, Jim Duffy sacked after four games in First Division despite Dundee lying top. Falkirk finally promoted

2005-06

Livingston relegated, JOHN ROBERTSON sacked April 2007, St.Mirren promoted

2006-07

Dunfermline relegated, Stephen Kenny sacked 4th of December 2007, Gretna promoted

2007-08

Gretna relegated, Hamilton promoted

2008-09

OH DEAR! ICT relegated, St. Johnstone promoted

To Summarise:

Shortest length of time returning to the SPL: St. Mirren 5 seasons

Only three teams have ever returned back to the SPL: Falkirk, St. Mirren, St. Johnstone

Three teams have beeen relegated again after dropping from SPL: Partick Thistle, Livingston, Gretna

Shortest Managerial reign after relegation: 4 games Jim Duffy

Longest Managerial reign after relegation: 2 Years Billy Stark

I welcome any feedback good or bad, and any additional information you may have. Some of the information provided may be incorrect so please inform me if you have different info

The bit in bold i sorted for you because the chaps name is Stephen Kenny not Kelly, sorry for pointing that outok.

Edited December 8, 2009 by Mahonio

[dannydoo]

I don't think us not being promoted this season is why people are brassed off with Butcher. Its his general managerial skills, the team play very patchy games. If we were just straight up losing games different story but we seem to play good in one half of the game and then throw it away before the final whistle. So its almost as if we deserve to win and perhaps have a higher steading in the league. Of course the first season back to any league whether it be up or down will be difficult at best for a team as they have many things to get used to, particularly financial ones. However I do think that if we had say Pele back this season and we were sliding down the league table it would be for a different reason altogether and I'll bet my bottom dollar it wouldn't be because of his skills as a manager, and perhaps fans would react differently.

[12th Man]

1 team is always going to finish bottom no matter how good the last team is, can you add the points acquired at the end of the season for the demoted club to give a clearer picture of the failings of the relegated team.

[Joe DiMaggio]

The SPL started before 2000/01, Hibs have been the only team ever to get relegated then come straight back up and that was back in 98/99!

[dannydoo]

The SPL started before 2000/01, Hibs have been the only team ever to get relegated then come straight back up and that was back in 98/99!

Hibs weren't promoted under the current system. The current system being 12 teams in the SPL which has been in place since 2000-2001. Prior to that (the season Hibs were promoted) there were only 10 teams. You can't compare different league set-ups hence that seasons omission.

[Themidgetmaestro]

The SPL started before 2000/01, Hibs have been the only team ever to get relegated then come straight back up and that was back in 98/99!

Hibs weren't promoted under the current system. The current system being 12 teams in the SPL which has been in place since 2000-2001. Prior to that (the season Hibs were promoted) there were only 10 teams. You can't compare different league set-ups hence that seasons omission.

Thanks Dannydoo

please read FULLY before posting

[+HawkeyeTheGnu]

The SPL started before 2000/01, Hibs have been the only team ever to get relegated then come straight back up and that was back in 98/99!

If you want to be anal about it, Hibs were relegated from the last season the premier league was part of the SFL, and rebuilt significantly adding a combination of SPL quality players and experienced SFL1 lags to ensure promotion.

SFL1 has always been a nightmare to get out of. There are usually at least 7 teams who could potentially win it, and the competition is utterly cut-throat.

[ictchris]

Three teams have beeen relegated again after dropping from SPL: Partick Thistle, Livingston, Gretna

Only Partick Thistle were relegated after finishing in the bottom two. Livingston were relegated due to entering administration and Gretna went into liquidation and ceased to exist.

[+HawkeyeTheGnu]

Only three teams have ever returned back to the SPL: Falkirk, St. Mirren, St. Johnstone

Falkirk were never relegated according to your figures, so haven't returned back within your time frame. They did win SFL1 twice, but weren't promoted the first time, so we will never know whether they would have stayed up or not.

[ictchris]

Just because it?s rare for clubs to go straight back up doesn?t mean that it can?t be done. However, there are reasons why relegated clubs struggle in the First Division.

1. Upheaval in squad/team. Most clubs who are relegated have to cut costs and this includes freeing players who they would most likely keep. In our case we had to let Filipe Morais, Brian Kerr and Pavels Mihadjuks leave. These three players were all regulars last season and would have been again if we could have kept them. As well as losing good players, the turnover in the squad means that there will be a settling in period for the new players. This will cause inconsistent performances in most cases.

2. Adapting to a new division. Most teams that win the First Division have played in the league for a few years. Falkirk won the league in 2003 and 2005 ? they were relegated in 1996. We won the league in 2004 ? we were promoted in 1999. St Mirren won the league in 2006 ? they were relegated in 2000. Hamilton won the league in 2008 ? they were promoted in 2004. St Johnstone won the league in 2009 ? they were releaged in 2002. This suggests that squads and clubs need time to grow accustomed to the demands of the First Division. In the case of sides who are relegated, it takes time to adapt from grinding out points in a relegation fight to the confidence and arrogance to go out expecting to win every match that is required in a title challenge. Promoted sides need time to gain experience and find their feet at a higher level. The only exception during this time to this rule was Gretna, who effectively bought their way into the league by signing up players with experience.

3. Different tactical requirements. This links with the previous point. When Caley Thistle won the league we played with three up front, we were the leading goalscorers in the league and regularly scored four or five goals in a game. When we were in the SPL we were renowned for our tight defence and ability to grind out results. Clubs the size of Caley Thistle can only really survive in the SPL by adopting a more defensive style of football. After being relegated this needs to change but altering the footballing focus of the team is difficult. Combine this with the first two factors and you can see why many teams struggle.

[caleykid1994]

3. Different tactical requirements. This links with the previous point. When Caley Thistle won the league we played with three up front, we were the leading goalscorers in the league and regularly scored four or five goals in a game. When we were in the SPL we were renowned for our tight defence and ability to grind out results. Clubs the size of Caley Thistle can only really survive in the SPL by adopting a more defensive style of football. After being relegated this needs to change but altering the footballing focus of the team is difficult. Combine this with the first two factors and you can see why many teams struggle.

see this is the bit that i didnt understand. I do know that financially its better to grind out results and just stay in the SPL but Hibs went a different route and decided to go attacking and look where they are now???

The season we had Niculae was when we should have pushed to a more attacking style.

[absent friend]

see this is the bit that i didnt understand. I do know that financially its better to grind out results and just stay in the SPL but Hibs went a different route and decided to go attacking and look where they are now???The season we had Niculae was when we should have pushed to a more attacking style.

Hibs are the exception - balls and ability!

Hughes has the balls to put his neck on the line and his forwards have the ability to stick the ball in the net.

Easy..... and it must be so exciting for their fans!!

[Caley Stan]

1 team is always going to finish bottom no matter how good the last team is, can you add the points acquired at the end of the season for the demoted club to give a clearer picture of the failings of the relegated team.

2001/2 St. Mirren 8th 45 points

2002/3 St Johnst. 3rd 67 points

2003/4 N/A

2004/5 Partick 9th 39 points - relegated :014:

2005/6 Dundee 7th 43 points

2006/7 Livingston 6th 45 points

2007/8 Dunfermline 5th 51 points

2008/9 N/A

So, of the 6 teams that have been relegated in this period, 5 have finshed in 5th place or below and none have been involved in challenging for the title.

[Themidgetmaestro]

this seems pretty pointless now :P

[KennySim93]

this seems pretty pointless now

Why bring it back up then?

[CaleyD]

Maybe he needed some closure, or like many others is just accepting that they called it wrong early doors!!!

I actually remember this thread and typing the following response and then choosing not to post it.

Ponder This.....